Sean K Reynolds on working at Paizo (and other companies)

[Scribe]

"I need you to convince yourself that you want to pay more for your RPG products. The job requires huge expertise. I work with brilliant people who are worldwide experts in their field."
Quote:

I am afraid I think that is an inflated view. The reality just is that Paizo (together with WotC and so on) aren't the only ones that can provide you with a world-class experience.

There is a definite wages-dampener Mr Seifter seems to not see, in that the "huge expertise" you need is acquired simply by playing and gamesmastering and discussing your favorite games.

(Of course Mr Seifter could be talking specifically about expertise in his company's specific product, though I do not believe he is. If so, yes, Pathfinder 2 is a complex game - he would probably be right. But you don't need any of that complexity to enjoy a world-class experience.)

Reading that whole tweet thread, it certainly seems a few things are clear.

Some combination of the following.

RPG's do not make enough money to live on, in Seattle.
Paizo does not pay remotely enough.
Writing RPG's is in no way a career path if you want things like a car, house, family.

I have to wonder what Mark believes they need to sell books at, to make it profitable enough to pay (IMO) a living wage.

Because it certainly would appear Paizo isnt meeting that bar, at all, while charging $60 for the core book.

 

[Mannahnin]

I want to contest how insiders and fans alike refer to the business as an "industry". That brings along so many implied assumptions, which in this case are almost all wrong.

It is much more instructive, I think, to call it "not an industry", since that explains so many things. Or at least, avoids you assuming those things.

(No, your job isn't just a job that deserves a high salary. No you aren't nearly as irreplaceable as you think. There just isn't any comparison to cotton mill factory workers of old, or, say, Amazon workers today. Those sectors actually saw some serious cash!)

Since it was a few pages since I last said it, let me be clear: I wish the best for Paizo's employees. I just hope they don't expect too much.

TTRPGs, while much smaller than, say, CRPGs, are a market which supports more publishers than either us can name from memory. It supports some number (hundreds or thousands) of people working full time at it as their primary source of income.

There is a quantitative difference in scale, we are agreed. That there is no industry at all seems like a misrepresentation. Cotton mills were certainly a larger industry. Cotton mill workers were certainly also more easily replaceable.

 

[TheSword]

Duplicato

 

[TheSword]

I completely agree.

Of course, another way of phrasing this would be: I have a strong feeling there is not any money to be made in the actual business of RPGs.



I have long made the observation that as soon as a rpg company branches out into [insert pretty much any other business here] your actual rpg goes to sh*t, or is at the very least put on the backest burner there is.

Paizo did very well with a miniatures range, card games, quality adventure flip mats, card stock character pawns, initiative tracker, spell templates. And ultimately a successful CRPG (Kingmaker).

It seems to me to be a no brainer for a TTRPG to be selling VTT quality battlemaps, and online tokens to support their product.

A lot of the most successful kickstarters include miniature lines, board game spin offs etc etc.

Perhaps we have moved past the point where you can make reasonable money with a black and white, 16 page adventure, DM only line maps and sketchy art.

The list of TTRPG Patreon’s for instance making £1000 + a month is staggering.

 

[Scribe]

(A minor note)

A quick google search brings up $72K to live comfortably.

You need to make $72,092 a year to live comfortably in Seattle

How much money does it take to live comfortably in Seattle? Well, the answer is an annual income of $72,092.A study fromGOBankingrates.com discovered that residents of Seattle earn a median household income of $67,365, which is $4,727 less less than the i

seattlerefined.com

I would expect, people hired to professionally write, have an education. If you cannot pay people with a 4 year degree $70K in 2021?

Quick napkin math, 52 weeks, 40 Hours a week, ~$35 an hour?

You can make that driving a truck.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

(A minor note)

A quick google search brings up $72K to live comfortably.

You need to make $72,092 a year to live comfortably in Seattle

How much money does it take to live comfortably in Seattle? Well, the answer is an annual income of $72,092.A study fromGOBankingrates.com discovered that residents of Seattle earn a median household income of $67,365, which is $4,727 less less than the i

seattlerefined.com

I would expect, people hired to professionally write, have an education. If you cannot pay people with a 4 year degree $70K in 2021?

Quick napkin math, 52 weeks, 40 Hours a week, ~$35 an hour?

You can make that driving a truck.

Those types of surveys are hopelessly incorrect. Mostly because they don't give a good measure of what "comfortably" means, and can't account for a wide degree of variance.

Just looking at the link, you immediately see that this include a require 20% ($14.5k) in savings- which is awesome ... but well above what most people are saving. Heck, look at what they write later- Miami (for example) has a $46,199 deficit income (more than NY, LA, or SAN FRANCISCO??!)

Yes, a city that's so expensive, no one lives there any more. It's like Yogi Berra come to life.

Anyway, people will require different amounts of income at different times- if they are starting their career or in peak earning years. If the city has transportation or not. Housing costs (and what people tolerate). Whether you're married with children ... and availability of different types of assistance. Even things like availability of public and free recreation can impact livability greatly.

 

[TheSword]

(A minor note)

A quick google search brings up $72K to live comfortably.

You need to make $72,092 a year to live comfortably in Seattle

How much money does it take to live comfortably in Seattle? Well, the answer is an annual income of $72,092.A study fromGOBankingrates.com discovered that residents of Seattle earn a median household income of $67,365, which is $4,727 less less than the i

seattlerefined.com

I would expect, people hired to professionally write, have an education. If you cannot pay people with a 4 year degree $70K in 2021?

Quick napkin math, 52 weeks, 40 Hours a week, ~$35 an hour?

You can make that driving a truck.

Woah. That’s article refers to household income. So typically two people not one!

$72k is about £55k in the UK which is almost double the average wage… and we’re a wealthy country.

That figure would put someone somewhere between the 80th and 90th percentile for income in this country. So way above what would normally be considered comfortable living. At that salary we would also be in the 40% income tax bracket vs America’s 22%

There has to be a modicum of common sense over what a reasonable living wage should be… it ain’t $72,000

 

[darjr]

I also think there is an aspect that isn’t talked about much that needs more attention. Growing the player base is super important. Probably the most important. For so long it seemed like the natural state of things was that the player base was shrinking. Now that we know it is growing and by a lot in recent years. I think it can grow by a lot more. I think the trick, and part of my personal mission, is to find those who would be fans and help them on board. I find that I keep running into folks like that, that love D&D they just needed a helping hand. I suspect there are a lot of them yet to be found.

Note I dint think it’s worth trying to convince those who are already uninterested.

 

[Scribe]

Woah. That’s article refers to household income. So typically two people not one!

$72k is about £55k in the UK which is almost double the average wage… and we’re a wealthy country.

That figure would put someone somewhere between the 80th and 90th percentile for income in this country. So way above what would normally be considered comfortable living. At that salary we would also be in the 40% income tax bracket vs America’s 22%

There has to be a modicum of common sense over what a reasonable living wage should be… it ain’t $72,000

Well thats why I provided the link. So folks would see where perhaps things are coming from.

I dont live there, but the Twitter thread seems to be saying 'we cannot afford to work here and live'. So the question was why, what are the values being assumed?

I dont believe its a fair assumption to say you have to shack up to survive, and I cannot imagine living on $50K a year Canadian (roughly half of £55k) and I'm on the West Coast of Canada.

Rent here, is about $2K a month for a 2 bedroom, if you are in Vancouver, its well over that.

Either way, I'm not sayings its correct, I'm just saying if Mark's Tweets are to be taken at face value, then I wonder at what price point a living wage (house, car, not check to check living) is reached.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Either way, I'm not sayings its correct, I'm just saying if Mark's Tweets are to be taken at face value, then I wonder at what price point a living wage (house, car, not check to check living) is reached.

Great question about a living wage. No easy answer- not in the United States, and I am sure many other places.

The main issue is the massive geographic differences. There are places in the US where land (and housing) is cheap- beyond cheap. But there may not be much in the way of jobs. Or services. Or transportation if you don't have a vehicle.

On the other hand, there are places where you can have everything you want, and more- including high-paying jobs! But your cost of living will be much higher.

Then there's the whole federalism issue- there are substantial legal differences (including the type of assistance you might get) depending on your locality- cities and states can have very different programs. As one simple example, if you lose your job and are eligible for unemployment, you can get from approximately $230/week (Mississippi) to nearly $850 (Massachusetts)- and some states make everyone eligible, and easily, while other states make it nearly impossible to qualify.

And then- what does it take, for you? If you are a student at Rhode Island School of Design, and your money goes to wine, tuition, wine, rent, wine, art supplies, and more wine ... you're probably okay living on ramen for a few years in a tiny hellhole in Providence that even HP Lovecraft would look at and say, "Oh, no ... that apartment? That's cosmic horror."

But if you're raising three young kids ... maybe the all-ramen, all-the-time doesn't work so well. It's relative.

Then, of course, there's benefits- because the US ties health care to employment pretty strongly. Good benefits matter greatly to a lot of people. How much is taken out of your paycheck for those benefits also matters to a lot of people. Or, for that matter, even being eligible.

It's not an easy answer, other than to say that, for the most part, the consumer desire for "cheaper" has meant that people aren't paid enough.

IMO, YMMV, etc.