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[Pielorinho]

So, it does indeed look like everything substantive has been said. All that remains is to misrepresent what your debate opponents are saying, because it's easier to villify than to argue. Darkmaster, you've broken your promise, so I'm out of this conversation with you for good.

Cheerio.
Daniel

 

[DarkMaster]

So, it does indeed look like everything substantive has been said. Great fun, guys!
Daniel

I am pretty sure we will get another of those mail with BIG RED CHARACTER trying to convince us again

Pielorinho, I hope you don't take it personnal, my goal is not to piss you off, I simply wants to express you my point of vue. You are probably doing the same. The only problem is that we are both hard headed

 

[Black Knight Irios]

As it seems, those who like roleplaying and therefore stretch the rules or ignore them at all, are the first who scream aloud that those who are sticking to the rules are only roling dice and do no roleplaying at all, something I think is quite interesting. Given the fact that those who roleplay so great and have a fantasy that is unimaginable are the first that deny others the possibility to use both roleplay and rules...don't get me wrong but I think it is nearly always the same thing in such discussions. -Just think a moment about it. The Good Roleplayers must always be convinced that there is a mid-way, using rules, diceroles and roleplay together.
I know you can try to roleplay many things, but I think you can't roleplay characters with ability scores like INT34, WIS30, CHA36, DEX28 and so on, therefore you have rules. The same goes for CHA8, if you try to make him appear more social then he is then the skills, rules and dicerolls will prove wether he is or he is not.
I pointed out on some other boards in discussions that went the same route of argument, that it is nice keeping your skill points save from those boring social skills, you can use them much better for skills you can't roleplay, e.g. spellcraft, concentration, craft(...), saves you a lot points, this statement is somehow insulting those who don't do that, but sometimes I think this might hit the spot as well as only wanting to make a good roleplay!

I played AD&D 2nd as well and sometimes I thought, what stupid rules they have and how unbalanced are those classes, skills... especially after starting to play D&D 3rd.
I think games that are fair and balanced, are more fun to play for everyone, I played very unbalanced games as well and as long as there are no numbers dices and the like involved it is fun for everyone most of the time, but when it is getting down to numbers you will recognize the fact that the players with the 'weaker' characters will posibly end up annoyed because they can't do anything or are always worse in doing things than those with the priviledged characters that form the upper side of the group.

That's why I dislike groups with great powerlevel differences and roleplaying things, that can be done with a dice role and roleplay by the rules, as well.

 

[Majere]

*sigh*
For the umpteenth time.
I never said you didnt need the skill
I never said you dont need to roll dice
But rolling the dice should be the LAST step in a flow of events.

To use the examples given:
You have harmed the elementals already with cold magic and its pretty clear you have alot more spells to hand
You are flying and clearly out of reach
You make a REASONABLE suggestion to the elemental.

And only NOW do you roll any dice. And at this point I would be looking for a DC of 5 or even 1 to succeed on the diplomacy check.

To use the example of the bluffing dwarf fighter:
You find you need to get in town
You watch and wait to see which guard you suspect will be the most easily convinced.. I mean that half asleep half ork doesnt seem to bright.
You come up with a convincing story.

And only NOW do you roll that bluff chack, with nice big circumstantial bonus.

I never said that you didnt need a search roll to find traps, if you read MY EXAMPLES I always require a search roll to find traps. Its just that sometimes I require your character to do something so that he gets a search check, even if its just to "look for traps", there are still player actions before I allow dice rolls. You can never roleplay around a trap, you always end up rolling a disable check, but you may fail to roleplay into a position where you even get a disable devise roll or a search roll. (Eg "I run across the room quickly to avoid being spotted" and theren running over a pit trap.. no search roll for you !).

Roleplaying cannot replace the skills directly, but they can get you so far and they can certainly enhance the skills.

And FYI the comment, while deliberately antagonistic, was not ment to actually be insulting, it was to remind you that we have got by without some of these skills before. So there isnt really any arguement that you HAVE to have diplomacy. or bluff, or other social skills. Yes it helps the weaker players (and that alone maybe reason enough to use them) but they are in no way essential to the game, and some people prefer not to play them in.
I happen to be one of those people

Majere

 

[DarkMaster]

*, it was to remind you that we have got by without some of these skills before. So there isnt really any arguement that you HAVE to have diplomacy. or bluff, or other social skills. Yes it helps the weaker players (and that alone maybe reason enough to use them) but they are in no way essential to the game, and some people prefer not to play them in.
I happen to be one of those people

Majere

That is why my next character will have STR3 and when he needs to lift something I will roleplay it

 

[Majere]

Did you bother to read my post or just argue with it,
because your comment and teh passage you quoted are entirely unrelated. Str is a stat, not a social skill.

And to answer your question.
No you cant roleplay lifting object because you are Str3, what you COULD do is for instance, say:
"Im going to go and buy a wheel barrow, because then I an lift much more than normal by puching it about in the barrow"
OR
"Im going to buy a trolly on three wheels to drag my equipment about on because Im so week"
OR
"Im going to see if I can get ahold of a pully"
"Im going to look about for a plank and something I can use as a pivot"

If you said any of the above, Im liable to give your caracter a bonus to his strength check to lift the item (Or in the case of the first two, let you use your drag capacity rather than your carrying capacity, but you have to have your hands free).
Can you see the difference between what Im saying and what you seem to think I am saying ?

Majere

 

[Scion]

So there isnt really any arguement that you HAVE to have diplomacy. or bluff, or other social skills. Yes it helps the weaker players (and that alone maybe reason enough to use them) but they are in no way essential to the game, and some people prefer not to play them in.

So there isnt really any arguement that you HAVE to have swim. or climb, or other physical skills. Yes it helps the weaker players (and that alone maybe reason enough to use them) but they are in no way essential to the game, and some people prefer not to play them in.


Edit: note that this is a parody, in case anyone didnt get that.

 

[DarkMaster]

Did you bother to read my post or just argue with it,

No you cant roleplay lifting object because you are Str3, what you COULD do is for instance, say:
"Im going to go and buy a wheel barrow, because then I an lift much more than normal by puching it about in the barrow"
OR
"Im going to buy a trolly on three wheels to drag my equipment about on because Im so week"
OR
"Im going to see if I can get ahold of a pully"
"Im going to look about for a plank and something I can use as a pivot"

If you said any of the above, Im liable to give your caracter a bonus to his strength check to lift the item (Or in the case of the first two, let you use your drag capacity rather than your carrying capacity, but you have to have your hands free).
Can you see the difference between what Im saying and what you seem to think I am saying ?

Majere

Again you are assuming that my character has knowledge (basic physic) My point is that the ability of your player should never be used to decide the effectiveness and the results of their characters action. It doesn't matter if the ability is physical or intelectual or social. I don't understand why it is ok to roll dice for physical ability like combat, lifting, bending or for ability that cannot be reproduced in the real world like spell casting but for intellectual and social it's ok. I guess it comes from the old version were there was no clear rule to handle those situations. But with the new revision I don't understand why people still don't understand that their character is not a representation of themselves in a fantasy world. It is someone with different skill and ability that they roleplay

 

[Majere]

It would seem to me tht people who play larps agree with you to some extent.

I however dont hold games sessions close enough to a large body of water to enact swimming. I also doubt Id let a players swimming ability help his characters swim check, while I agree this is entirely inconsistant, I view social skills as quite seperate from game skills.
Thats just how I chose to play the game

Majere

 

[DarkMaster]

It would seem to me tht people who play larps agree with you to some extent.

I however dont hold games sessions close enough to a large body of water to enact swimming. I also doubt Id let a players swimming ability help his characters swim check, while I agree this is entirely inconsistant, I view social skills as quite seperate from game skills.
Thats just how I chose to play the game

Majere

There fore you choose to disbalance the game, but if everybody in your group is Ok with that, or take advantage of optimizing their character according to that it's OK. I guess your player all started to play with you and were never exposed to anything else.