Search Skill and Taking 20:House Rule, no taking 20 on search checks

[Ashtagon]

In our campaign, it came up because taking 20 removed the possibility of most traps. A rogue with a moderate Int score (let's say 10, even though in practice that's usually low for a rogue) can find magic traps (DC 25+spell level) high above their level EVERY TIME with taking 20, at no cost.

You were doing it wrong. If you take 20, it is assumed you rolled at least one "20", but also rolled at least one "1". You can't take 20 if there is a risk of failure having a bad effect, which certainly applies if there is a trap present.

DMs should always roll if a character Searches, just so that the lack of roll won't tell the player that there definitely isn't a trap.

 

[imaria]

If you take 20, it is assumed you rolled at least one "20", but also rolled at least one "1". You can't take 20 if there is a risk of failure having a bad effect, which certainly applies if there is a trap present.

On a Disable Device check, I know that applies. But Search is probably the most outright in saying you CAN take 20 on looking for.. well, anything.

Taking 20
When you have plenty of time (generally 2 minutes for a skill that can normally be checked in 1 round, one full-round action, or one standard action), you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20. In other words, eventually you will get a 20 on 1d20 if you roll enough times. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, just calculate your result as if you had rolled a 20.

Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right, and it assumes that you fail many times before succeeding. Taking 20 takes twenty times as long as making a single check would take.

Since taking 20 assumes that the character will fail many times before succeeding, if you did attempt to take 20 on a skill that carries penalties for failure, your character would automatically incur those penalties before he or she could complete the task. Common “take 20” skills include Escape Artist, Open Lock, and Search.

Also, note that while you can't take 20 when there is a penalty for failure, there is also no implication that taking 20 results in having rolled a 1 somewhere along the way. That's one of the major differences between taking 20, and rolling the d20 for an actual 20 times.

 

[TKDB]

Also, note that while you can't take 20 when there is a penalty for failure, there is also no implication that taking 20 results in having rolled a 1 somewhere along the way.

Technically speaking, even if there were such an implication it wouldn't matter anyway. By RAW, a nat-1 on a skill check is not a critical failure, nor even a guaranteed failure. However, this is a very common houserule.

 

[Ashtagon]

I wasn't assuming a natural 1 is a critical failure. I was assuming it was a simple failure (very likely unless you are level 25 or so). Searching an area certainly involves touching various surfaces in that space. And a great many magical traps are triggered by touch. Hence, there is a real consequence of failure. Which means by RAW you can't take 20.

 

[TKDB]

I wasn't assuming a natural 1 is a critical failure. I was assuming it was a simple failure (very likely unless you are level 25 or so). Searching an area certainly involves touching various surfaces in that space. And a great many magical traps are triggered by touch. Hence, there is a real consequence of failure. Which means by RAW you can't take 20.

Actually, nothing in the RAW states that searching something requires physical contact. In fact, it seems implied that it is (or at the very least can be) purely visual.

You generally must be within 10 feet of the object or surface to be searched. The table below gives DCs for typical tasks involving the Search skill.

Of course, this detail is very easily houseruled, because by RAW there really isn't much to explain what is and isn't entailed by searching, and it would be quite reasonable for some things (like following tracks) to be purely visual while other things (like searching for traps) would require a more hands-on investigation.

 

[Belzbet]

, but to say that the problem lies in the fact that you "can't hide anything" is just silly. If you invest character resources (skill points) into being good at noticing subtle details, you get a commensurate ability to notice those details; likewise, if you invest in-game time into being particularly thorough, it's only right that there's a payoff for that.

I really dont see why it is "silly." Just because a PC has the skill and training doesnt mean that much. NO OTHER SKILL OR ABILITY IN THE GAME (that I know of) that requires a roll is a for sure success given enough time (there are some mundane things, like buying stuff, that are ALWAYS successes but...). And PC's WILL take the time to search every nook and cranny and it would be REALLY silly to house rule that a PC CANNOT do what they want to do (namely, search every nook and cranny of every dungeon). Its easier and makes more sense to give them penalties (like imaria suggests) or remove the take 20 from the game (and give them penalties for searching over and over). Just like many others have said the PC's will either take 20 OR role until they get 20, nonetheless they WILL search every nook and cranny of every dungoen (and if time is an issue they can always go back). So, the only way to go is implement rules like imaria suggests.
Also, maybe the "hide nothing" is your style but it is interesting to say we are being silly because we dont like the idea that the PC's can find EVERY hidden room and treasure put in the game WITHOUT fail (that is unless you simply make the DC to high to find by any PC).

 

[Michael Silverbane]

Although imaria's solution could conceivably lead to the taking 20 simply taking up more time... as in...


<player> I take 20 to search this 5-foot square.
<DM> You find nothing.
<player> I rest for a day.
<DM> um... okay...
<player> I take 20 to search the next 5-foot square.
<DM> You've got to be kidding me.
<player> well, I might have been tired from having searched that previous 5-foot square, so I want to rest between searches to ensure that I am fresh and at the top of my game.
<DM> *commits suicide*

 

[imaria]

If a PC wants to try and sleep 8 hours after every check, feel free. I don't care if you DID kill everything in the dungeon; spend that much time there, and something new will wander in and coup de grace you eventually. The DM can basically "take 20" on killing you if you push it THAT far.

 

[Belzbet]

I wasn't assuming a natural 1 is a critical failure. I was assuming it was a simple failure (very likely unless you are level 25 or so). Searching an area certainly involves touching various surfaces in that space. And a great many magical traps are triggered by touch. Hence, there is a real consequence of failure. Which means by RAW you can't take 20.

Interesting take on it!

 

[Belzbet]

DMs should always roll if a character Searches...

Good idea! I will have to do that for sure.