Searching for "New School" elements

None of these terms are "more accurate".

Whether they are more accurate or not depends on what you're trying to be accurate about.

If you are trying to convey a feeling playing in the style gave or gives you, then the terms "Old School" and "New School" are as accurate as anything else. If you're trying to denote the content of the style that gave you that feeling, there's a problem. Those terms give you a hint as to when the style happened, but nothing about what the style contains.

When you ask about what the schools contain, you get different answers - two different folks who love "old school" gaming will not give you the same answers. So, accurate or not, the terms are imprecise when used to try to denote style content.

Nothing makes me grit my teeth on a message board more than "I just don't think these are helpful terms". Attempts to control content and meaning in this manner are....offensive.

Both sides are guilty of trying to control content by plain old browbeating.

And the root problem has always, always, always ended up being "I don't like what you are trying to convey" rather than the method of conveyance. Always.

Given that the terms had emotional connotations before ever being co-opted by gamers, and that the term was co-opted *because* of that emotional connotation, this should not be a surprise. If the very term for a style conveys, "other stuff is inferior," then yes, people are going to dislike what you're saying alongside how you are saying it. By adopting the term, you're the one who tied the method of conveyance with what you're conveying, not them. They cannot help but attack both at once.

Pick a term for the style that is more emotionally neutral, and you'll see that problem dissipate.

Sorry, but No. Some people are going to view some things that you like as negatives. Some people are going to view some things that I like as negatives. That's the way life is.

I'm not sure what the point of this is. It reads like it is supposed to get him to stand down - be fatalistic about it, as the end is unavoidable.
 

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Whether they are more accurate or not depends on what you're trying to be accurate about.

If I suggest that you replace term X with term Y, because term Y is "more accurate", it clearly should mean "more accurate than term X, for what you are trying to be accurate about when using term X".

And, in this case, I stand by my previous statements. Bullgrit's suggestions are not more accurate than Old School or New School....there is no problem.

Those terms give you a hint as to when the style happened, but nothing about what the style contains.

Yes. Like so many other terms human beings use.

And, OTOH, at least they are not misleading about the meaning, which I would argue Bullgrit's suggested replacements may well be. If, as you say,

When you ask about what the schools contain, you get different answers - two different folks who love "old school" gaming will not give you the same answers.​

then, perforce, the terms are not about specifics of content. I would say that they are about overall philosophy and/or the emergent properties of content + interaction.

Both sides are guilty of trying to control content by plain old browbeating.

:erm:

I will counter what Bullgrit says, because IMHO it is worth doing. I do not, however, suggest that Bullgrit use other words which I will then choose for him. I champion his right to say what he likes; I feel no compulsion to allow him to do so in a vacuum, free from dissenting opinion.

Kord forbid that someone point out another is "trying to control content" of another's point of view by plain old browbeating" -- surely, whosoever does so will be accused of the same!

That's a pretty critical difference to me. Perhaps not to you.


RC
 
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I have no idea what this has to do with the school discussion, and suspect that other posters would be similarly confused. Would you please clarify your contribution?
Roll d20 and add to it for "high enough" for just about everything if you like, or don't. That is about as irrelevant as you can get, unless you get into the ideological baggage that has come along with the "core mechanic" puffery and clobbered common sense in some quarters.

It's the layout of the board, the victory conditions, the way that players interact, that makes Monopoly what it is. "We roll a pair of dice" is trivial, no different from Backgammon, and you could get the same spread -- which is what matters most, not the cubes as artifacts -- in other ways.

Ever play Monopoly with a bunch of cock-eyed house rules? "How come the game takes so long?" Well, that's what happens when you don't put properties up for auction. "How come a couple of lucky rolls gave Andy such a lead?" Well, that's a consequence of your "free money for landing on Free Parking" variant.

"While it is possible to play a single game, unrelated to any other game events past or future, it is the campaign for which these rules are designed." That's the facts, Jack, about the original D&D game, and some particulars of what "the campaign" meant in Blackmoor and Greyhawk practice were pretty essential parts of the whole. They were not slapped on "play styles" with trivial effects; they were the game that had been playtested and developed and demanded and in 1974 offered.

It was a "massively multiplayer" game, in which "the referee to player ratio should be about 1:20 or thereabouts". Two referees handling 50 players would be fine. In Blackmoor, there was

Dave Arneson said:
... a great deal of emphasis being placed on the players themselves setting up new Dungeons, with my original Dungeonmaster role evolving more into the job of coordinating the various operations that were underway at any given moment. At the height of my participation as chief co-ordinator there were six Dungeons and over 100 detailed player characters to be kept track of at any one time."

It was a game in which risk of character mortality, along with other probabilistic factors, played a key role:

Men & Magic said:
Top level magic-users are perhaps the most powerful characters in the game, but it is a long, hard road to the top, and to begin with they are weak, so survival is often the question, unless fighters protect the low-level magical types until they have worked up.

One powerful way to get fighters for protection was as henchmen (or "hirelings of unusual nature", to use the original phrase). Drop that aspect from the game, and there you have the notion of charisma as a "dump stat".

Of course, there was no rule limiting a player to but one character at a time in a campaign. Gary Gygax (with Rob Kuntz as DM) eventually had his Circle of Eight, including at least one character (Bigby) who I gather had gone from monster to henchman to PC.

Magic users and fighters, clerics and dwarves and elves -- the options had a different character, a different balance, in that strategic context. Remove them from it, and it's like removing various pieces from their design context of a World War Two game.

Now, start whacking away at what's left in seemingly random fashion:

-- No more 1 attack/level for fighters vs. normal men & equivalent, and no more armies of such troops for them to command or conquer, and no more baronies to develop and defend.

-- No really notable limits on demi-humans to offset their advantages.

-- Preservation of the formerly endangered species of m-us, even if only by a general protection of PCs from having done unto them as they do unto others.

-- More easing of life for m-us with a "nerfed" spell here, a dropped rule there, much more frequent use of spells (especially those of higher levels).

-- Much easier manufacture of magic items.

-- Instead of it getting, at higher levels, ever easier to land a hit and harder to land a spell, swap in a different scheme.

-- Drop XP for treasure (scoring a goal), awarding points instead for getting into fights and having to deal with traps.

And so on.

I don't like 4e much as something for me to play, but it seems to have been more carefully designed, little "mechanical" details meshing better with the larger scheme, than 2e or 3e.

Some bits removed from the 4e context and slapped haphazardly into another game (or vice versa) might produce more than just the desired effects. A lot of pretty basic things are not just "a play style" but the game as it was designed to work.
 
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I have seen the argument about "better", "more accurate", "less offensive", etc., terms float around this little corner of cyberspace many a time. And the root problem has always, always, always ended up being "I don't like what you are trying to convey" rather than the method of conveyance. Always.

This is right on. "What you are trying to convey does not exist" is perennially funny, as one wonders why the attacker is so worked up over the supposedly non-existent different view someone is trying to share!

People can go hang out together in "old school" venues, and they know what they are chatting about. Petty and vicious snipers who prefer to attack people for having a community don't change that fact on the ground at the end of the day.
 

I was talking about AD&D2 and D&D3 materials. It's my understanding that AD&D2 and D&D3 are considered of the "New School" by those who separate things by "Old" and "New" schools. And I have used AD&D2 and D&D3 materials exactly like I used AD&D1 and BD&D materials. The things that people argue are strictly "Old School", I find in the AD&D2 and D&D3 materials. And things that people argue are strictly "New School", I can find plenty in AD&D1 and BD&D materials.

Bullgrit is "people". Actually, Bullgrit appears to be all the "people" arguing what Bullgrit claims "people" argue.
 

Bullgrit said:
It's like my experience with using miniatures. So many people argue that the use of miniatures in D&D gaming is a "New School" thing -- something that supposedly came with D&D3.
Who are those people?

Not me. Not Mythmere or Papers & Paychecks. Not Raven Crowking. Not James M. of Grognardia. Not the old cats who have their 1st ed. AD&D or OD&D books handy.

You talk your talk, and when you don't know what you're talking about we dismiss it as pure Bullgrit.

Just because someone has an uninformed opinion to blather about does not make him representative of any community. Who has made him an authority about anything?

When you claim to speak for your opponents, how much credence do you really expect?

Here's the account of Gary Gygax from The Dragon #15, June 1978:

For about two years, D&D adventures were played by the majority of enthusiasts without benefit of any visual aids. They held literally that it was a paper-and-pencil game, and if some particular situation arose which demanded more than verbalization, they would draw or place dice as tokens in order to picture the conditions. In 1976 a movement began among D&D players to portray characters with actual miniature figurines. Manufacturers of miniature figures began to provide more and more models aimed at the D&D market — characters, monsters, weapons, dungeon furnishings, etc. Availability sparked interest,and the obvious benefits of using figures became apparent: Distances could be pinned down, opponents were obvious, and a certain extra excitement was generated by the use of painted castings of what players "saw." Because of the return of miniatures to the D&D game, it is tending to come full circle; back to table-top battles not unlike those which were first fought with the parent of the D&D system, Chainmail's Fantasy Supplement, now occurring quite regularly.

Now, what did come in with 3e, and even more with 4e, was a strong demand for, and assumption of -- not miniatures! -- but a grid and markers in the way the game was designed. That, friend, is both the real difference and the difference that I have seen raised as an issue among "old school" D&D enthusiasts.
 

Roll d20 and add to it for "high enough" for just about everything if you like, or don't. That is about as irrelevant as you can get, unless you get into the ideological baggage that has come along and clobbered common sense in some quarters.

Oh, now I get it. You were agreeing with me. OK. I agree with you, too. :)
 


Umbran said:
If you are trying to convey a feeling playing in the style gave or gives you, then the terms "Old School" and "New School" are as accurate as anything else. If you're trying to denote the content of the style that gave you that feeling, there's a problem. Those terms give you a hint as to when the style happened, but nothing about what the style contains.

When you ask about what the schools contain, you get different answers - two different folks who love "old school" gaming will not give you the same answers. So, accurate or not, the terms are imprecise when used to try to denote style content.
Umbran said:
Given that the terms had emotional connotations before ever being co-opted by gamers, and that the term was co-opted *because* of that emotional connotation, this should not be a surprise. If the very term for a style conveys, "other stuff is inferior," then yes, people are going to dislike what you're saying alongside how you are saying it. By adopting the term, you're the one who tied the method of conveyance with what you're conveying, not them. They cannot help but attack both at once.

Pick a term for the style that is more emotionally neutral, and you'll see that problem dissipate.
I fully agree with Umbran, 100%.

Bullgrit
 

Actually, here is another thing that I think is a huge element of the new/old skool divide.

In a new skool game, the pcs are the most important thing. Challenges should be appropriate for the party.

In an old skool game, the milieu is the most important thing. Challenges should be appropriate for the setting.
 

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