D&D 5E Second Wind: Yes or No?

[Nemesis Destiny]

See, that I think is the heart of a lot of the problem. HP have always been this. But, at the table, many groups have narrated hit point loss as physical wounding. Since the vast majority of healing in D&D for decades has been magical, this isn't really a problem. "Gutted like a fish" at 0 HP is perfectly fine when it's going to take magic words to bring you back.

The problem started when we tried to add in non-magical healing that was actually effective and useful at the table.

Yes. This post nailed it. I tried to XP you but couldn't.

For this reason, I like the option of adding more gritty systems like wounds or injuries. Using teh Disease Track works well for this, as did the supplement on using an Injury Deck from Dragon a couple months back. Though I think it needs to remain optional, because not every group wants that level of grit and simulation; they're just fine with fluffy abstract hit points. Heck, this is something that can (and probably should) vary campaign-to-campaign!

 

[FireLance]

As an aside, I challenge anyone to come up with a healing mechanics that uses D&D-ish abstract hit points and accomplishes all of the following:

A. There is a finite limit on how much a character can take in a relatively small amount of time, despite external sources of healing being available (such as cure light wounds or potions of healing).

B. The system is elegant, reasonably simple to use and track, and at least nods towards game play and simulation of a typical D&D universe. For example, it's ok for it to support gritty play, but not if the grit excludes more epic play. It's ok for it to model the physics of healing somewhat, but not at the full exclusion of all game decisions.

C. The mechanics do not show much correspondence to the surge mechanics.

I don't think it can be done. If you think me wrong, I'd really like to see your answer.

I think VP/WP come close, but I'm not sure if the need to track an extra "hit point" score will cause it to fail your criteria B.

 

[sheadunne]

See, that I think is the heart of a lot of the problem. HP have always been this. But, at the table, many groups have narrated hit point loss as physical wounding. Since the vast majority of healing in D&D for decades has been magical, this isn't really a problem. "Gutted like a fish" at 0 HP is perfectly fine when it's going to take magic words to bring you back.

The problem started when we tried to add in non-magical healing that was actually effective and useful at the table.

Yup. We all know that HP are abstract, but at the table they're wounds, otherwise I wouldn't die at the end of them. I don't think to myself, heal me I'm tired, inspire me I'm tired, or I'm so tired I'm going to die. Hit points may be abstract but they're still "hits" and they hurt, especially that last one that kills you.

No amount of word smithing will change that for me. Surges make complete sense to me, except when I'm playing the game.

 

[D'karr]

Hit points may be abstract but they're still "hits" and they hurt, especially that last one that kills you.

It's unfortunate then that many people with no real actual serious injuries die of "shock". If there ever was a need for HP to simulate something completely abstract that is it.

 

[Ahnehnois]

It's unfortunate then that many people with no real actual serious injuries die of "shock". If there ever was a need for HP to simulate something completely abstract that is it.

I'm not clear on what you mean by this. Many people die of circulatory shock, which is most definitely associated with physical wounds.

If you're referring to psychological shock, it is possible for an acute stress reaction to cause cardiac arrest and death, but this is not exactly common. It also would not happen to hardened adventurers, and most definitely is not modeled by a hit point system. Psychological shock does not slowly accumulate 1d6+2 points at a time. Nor does it go away with "second winds" or healing, it dissipates when the threat is gone. Nor is it generally harmful. The whole point is to make you better able to deal with danger. There's simply a (very high) threshold. Up to that threshold, you have elevated awareness and performance. Past that threshold, your heart stops. If anything, being scared to death is the classic save or die. Of course, there's chronic stress too, but hp definitely isn't modeling that.

 

[sheadunne]

It's unfortunate then that many people with no real actual serious injuries die of "shock". If there ever was a need for HP to simulate something completely abstract that is it.

People die of slipping in the snow, infected toenails, and other silly stuff as well, but I don't play D&D for that. And I don't know anyone who plays the game to die of shock (with the possible exception of phantasmal killer haha). Which brings up an interesting point that dying from shock already has a mechanic and doesn't need one related to HP. We call it a saving throw.

Edit: Well that was a bit snippy. My apologies. Daughter kept me up all last night.

 

[Ahnehnois]

See, that I think is the heart of a lot of the problem. HP have always been this. But, at the table, many groups have narrated hit point loss as physical wounding. Since the vast majority of healing in D&D for decades has been magical, this isn't really a problem. "Gutted like a fish" at 0 HP is perfectly fine when it's going to take magic words to bring you back.

The problem started when we tried to add in non-magical healing that was actually effective and useful at the table.

I think even from your post it's clear that the problem started before that. There was already a problem when players of the game were thinking in terms of concrete physical wounds, but the rules didn't really reflect that very well. The sensible design direction would have been to create rules that matched the way people were playing and modeled physical wounds.

I mean, it's remarkable that we have rules for dozens of trivially different tricks a fighter can do with a shield (or, if you go back, charts for different weapon vs armor combinations), but the rules don't differentiate a broken leg from a severed artery, let alone fatigue, psychological damage, and "luck". Virtually no design space has been devoted to the enormous list of concepts that hit points can be tied to; they're all just lumped together into one number. Hit points are really bizarre.

Personally, when I'm working on my current vp/wp/injury system, the first thing to me is to make it really clear and discrete and explicit as to what each mechanic means in the context of the game world.

 

[Manbearcat]

The other day you asked me

Why would you want to?

in this thread.

Hit points are really bizarre.

Personally, when I'm working on my current vp/wp/injury system, the first thing to me is to make it really clear and discrete and explicit as to what each mechanic means in the context of the game world.

For the same reason that you endorse the above. This is a perfect example. I would hope that the designers fully canvas what HPs mean in the core system and in various vitality modules...and the implications of each in terms of table agenda, overhead and handling time.

 

[D'karr]

I'm not clear on what you mean by this. Many people die of circulatory shock, which is most definitely associated with physical wounds.

If you're referring to psychological shock, it is possible for an acute stress reaction to cause cardiac arrest and death, but this is not exactly common. It also would not happen to hardened adventurers, and most definitely is not modeled by a hit point system. Psychological shock does not slowly accumulate 1d6+2 points at a time. Nor does it go away with "second winds" or healing, it dissipates when the threat is gone. Nor is it generally harmful. The whole point is to make you better able to deal with danger. There's simply a (very high) threshold. Up to that threshold, you have elevated awareness and performance. Past that threshold, your heart stops. If anything, being scared to death is the classic save or die. Of course, there's chronic stress too, but hp definitely isn't modeling that.

It does and can happen to "hardened adventurers", or maybe real life soldiers are not "hardened" enough. Combat & Operational Stress Reaction (COSR), in the past referred to as battle shock and one of the precursors to Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD), presents psychological and physical stressors that if continued over time can lead to death.

If stress persists too long, it can cause physical and mental illnesses. Extreme stress with hopelessness can even result in rapid death, either due to sympathetic nervous system overstimulation (such as stroke or heart attack) or due to sympathetic nervous system shutdown (not simply exhaustion). An individual giving up can literally stop the heart from beating.​

So yes, in combat conditions the stressors are sufficiently there and it is actually possible to die from "shock" even with no actual physical injuries. Some of the symptoms such as disorientation, fatigue, and hyperventilation can even precipitate the cascading failure of other systems by reducing oxygen levels and impacting the body at the cellular level. I know it's not "heroic" enough but dying from a single save, or die effect is not heroic either, and it still happens. People shouldn't die from such a trivial thing as a bee sting, but it's obvious that it is serious enough, and some people do.

I agree that "hardened adventurers" should probably not die from "shock", but in an abstract system of HP, there is no reason to assume that none do. In the same manner that it's not reasonable to assume that some can't be brought back from the brink by calming them down and relieving the stressors, or inspiring them. One of the PTSD manuals that I've looked through even notes that a capable small unit commander can serve to inspire his troops and relieve/reduce these stressors by imparting confidence in them and their capabilities. You don't think that all that screaming that happens in boot camp is simply for the drill instructors benefit, do you? No it's training to impart confidence that the recruit can overcome the stress. So when he has a real stressor he can feel confident that he can overcome it, and others like his commander can also make him feel confident that he can overcome them.

The mind is a very unusual thing, in combat it's even more unusual. Treat it lightly at your own risk.

 

[Shayuri]

I don't mean to say hit points never reflect physical injury either. Just that they don't ONLY reflect it.

Or maybe more that what they reflect is impacted by physical injuries. Blood loss. Pain. Fatigue. Shock. It's possible to keep going through these things, but difficult. Hit points show how resilient you are to them...your grit.

Maybe if we call them Grit Points?

Healing can therefore reflect wounds being closed. Or they can reflect reinforcing your will to go on in SPITE of pain, weakness, fear and so on.

The trick is that it's all abstracted. It's assumed that if the bard sings you healed, eventually you still bandage those wounds up, and otherwise make sure you don't die because of bloodloss later, even if the inspiration lets you keep acting normally in spite of it for the combat.

A lot of things are handwaved for narrative convenience. D&D models heroic fiction, not reality. In Die Hard, McClain walks on glass...and gosh it hurts, but three scenes later he's running around and jumping. Because he got 'healed'.