D&D 5E Second Wind: Yes or No?

[Crazy Jerome]

Let me ask this, and forgive me if someone else proposed it...I have not had time to read all the posts in detail.

Can we use the surge mechanic to represent physical wounds?...

No one has said it in this topic yet. I suggested it about a year after 4E was launched, and I don't think I was the first.

I think 4E would have probably been better received if surges had been pushed to their logical conclusion (long-term depletion) instead of the wishy-washy compromise we got, Charlie Brown. That way, magical healing could bring back surges, but with notes in 4E to limit that healing. The availability of such healing becomes an adventure pacing mechanic that is nonetheless linked to something tangible outside the character. Meanwhile, hit points are allowed to be the tactical element, and thanks to the presence of surges, can be kept somewhat under control (though to fully realize that would have required something like "bounded accuracy" in 4E, as well).

Of course, if they went full-bore down that path, they might even have the guts to rename "surges" as "hit point" and call the "hit points" something else. (I like the "grit" suggested earlier.) That gets back to the D&D roots as a war game where "hit points" are a small total, and each one represents serious damage applied. That has all kinds of options for scaling in big battles, where you gradually ignore "grit" for monsters, NPCs, and maybe even players in favor of direct hit point damage. But alas, 4E is a classic case of going far enough to offend, but not far enough to reach the prize.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

I absolutely agree with the fluff, but healing surges are a fairly poor mechanism for modeling that. Better would be a reverse system where every time you are magically healed you must roll a constitution save. The more you are healed over time, the higher the DC becomes and the worse the effects are for failing.

The biggest advantage of this method is that it creates uncertainty. Over time, healing becomes a greater risk, with you never knowing exactly how much healing you'll be able to take.

And if you model that rolling against Con with the kinds of hit point totals and healing that typically happen in D&D, you get a result that is easy to predict--and which obviously simplifies to something like a finite amount of blocks of healing per day.

Granted, though, that is you want to make it random, it's better to go back to something like what you said than to try to kludge a roll onto surges.

 

[I'm A Banana]

At my table it is the player whose surge it is who spends it - but depending on circumstances etc, that player may have to get another player to actually use a power.
...
For me this is beyond the limits of my versimilitude tolerance. Admittedly I'm not a paramedic, but it takes me more than 6 seconds to stick a bandaid on one of my kid's scratches. The idea that I'd treat any serious injury in less than 6 seconds I find pretty laughable.

So, "My buddy takes a few moments to tie a quick bandage around my cuts" = laughably unbelievable (because it must literally be six seconds!) and "In the thick of battle, I need Bob to inspire my endurance back permanently, but once the battle's over, I can inspire myself all I want" = juuust fine (in fact, absolutely essential to playing a Warlord!)

It's a good example of how tables have different needs, all design is local, and how flexible D&D needs to be. I wouldn't say your way is wrong, but it is going to fail, hard and fast and miserably, at many tables. It's also not something that is essential to the "D&D experience," given the game existed without it just fine for 30+ years. So, IMO, this vision shouldn't be the assumption or requirement to "play D&D." Though it is certainly within the greater umbrella of things you can make D&D do.

Which is all part of why Second Wind should not be a basic rule (the other part being the previous 30-some years of people playing D&D just fine without it), though it would make a fine addition to many games.

I'd adopt Second Wind, but I think I'd balk at adopting healing surges in general (I'm not a big fan of HD, which don't solve the essential problem with them), and really resist 4e-style "needs a healer to unlock"-style surge healing. Using my character's resources should be something the game allows me to do whenever I feel like it may make sense to do so, and I enjoy the psychological effect of a dwindling pool of HP (uncluttered by the unnecessary complexity of an additional layer of "reserve HP") and how that creates a survival mentality that meshes with feel of the kinds of exploration/discovery/wonder/surprise-oriented games I like to play.

IMO, the basic game needs to do the fundamental D&D experience, which doesn't require a second wind or healing surges or HD. These are all cool options to play with, though.

 

[Ratskinner]

Realizing that my criteria is rather vague, my objection here is that it doesn't really address condition A. If there is plenty of healing magic, the character can be fully healed with relative ease. Moreover, a character can lose a lot of hit points over the course of a day or adventure and never take a "wound" to even need magical healing.

Maybe I'm not understanding your criteria A.

A. There is a finite limit on how much a character can take in a relatively small amount of time, despite external sources of healing being available (such as cure light wounds or potions of healing).

In my draft system:
Finite limit: your hp
Amount of time: between the DM-specified recovery periods
External sources of healing: next to irrelevant, interacting as a second-order

Notice that I said Healing magic would only erase the wounds, but not restore the hp. You'd still be at 0 hp, and every subsequent hit would trigger the wound roll. (The specified recovery period, or a Warlord's Rally ability (or whatever) would restore the hp, but not the wound.)

If you're worried about somebody always rolling 1's on their injury roll, then make the injuries stack, so that taking a light wound while already lightly wounded yields a serious wound, and so on. (I suppose that makes your limit: your hp + 4 hits maybe.) However, they don't call it the "Death Spiral" for nothing. Dropping to 0hp in this system would be a very serious moment in the fight.

If anything, my draft system may not meet your Criteria B:

B. The system is elegant, reasonably simple to use and track, and at least nods towards game play and simulation of a typical D&D universe. For example, it's ok for it to support gritty play, but not if the grit excludes more epic play. It's ok for it to model the physics of healing somewhat, but not at the full exclusion of all game decisions.

elegant & simple: I think so, but that's fairly subjective.
nods to ....typical D&D universe: its not BECMI hp, but again "typical D&D universe" is rather subjective and variable.
physics of healing...game decisions: not sure what "physics of healing" means, but I don't see how my draft system particularly hampers any game decisions

Nonetheless, its impossible to objectively satisfy subjective criteria.

Another way of thinking about criteria A is that characters can be worn down, but can still operate well enough to keep going when somewhat worn down. An example would be, say, a party of 7th level BECMI characters with a few potions and clerical magic, set in a campaign and in a group where the DM worked hard to keep the balance of such healing congruent with the risk and flow. That is, that's an example of a matching result, even if the BECMI rules didn't satisfy the criteria either.

I seems to me that your first sentence is precisely what my proposed system does. Of course, its precisely what just about every system I've ever seen does, so that's hardly surprising. The rest of your paragraph is essentially meaningless, AFAICT. Perhaps I'm missing a lot of inferred context?

Theoretically, you could get this in a BECMI-style game (or some aspects of Next) by having healing magic have diminishing returns. A healing spell works great the first time, but then your body has to rest to make up the difference before it will work at 100% again. Cast enough in a short time, it stops working at all. However, explore making this mechanic robust and simple, and you'll end up putting limits on healing at the character's end, not the source of the healing. Explore a little more, and you'll end up with something like surges.

"something like surges"? Wait, so, if I come up with a system that places character-end limits on healing/unit time, I'll probably come up with "something like surges?" Somebody inform the press.

Look man, its okay if you still like surges better. They are a fine mechanic AFAICT, I don't have a problem with them. Nonetheless, I'm confident that they are not the only way to skin that cat.

 

[Ratskinner]

Each surge value of HP you lose becomes a wound. A physical wound of a relatively minor, but not ignorable form. This is a little tricky because the wound occurs when the damage does, while surges are not tracked until the healing takes place. But in general, the amount of damage healed by a surge 'becomes' a wound and can then be kept track of by noticing that the surge has been used to 'heal' it.

Personally, I loathe Schrodinger's Wounds. If we're going to make the system any more complicated, then I'd prefer them on the chopping block. Otherwise, it sounds to me like you're proposing a fairly reasonable way to narratively interpret your healing surge counts. I'm not quite sure I see where its going, though.

 

[Shayuri]

Just spitballing really. Testing the limits of the system.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

Just spitballing really. Testing the limits of the system.

I really like your idea - it immediately made me start brainstorming, which is always a good sign in my book

I didn't find the so-called "Shrodinger's Wounds" aspect to be problematic at all - in fact, I find that element to be somewhat genre-appropriate. How many times in cinematic action does a protagonist go through a fight, taking "damage" only to realize afterward the severity (or lack) of their wounds? Once the adrenaline has worn off, they discover that, "it was just a flesh wound; lots of blood, no real damage," or "it was much worse than it looks; he's now leaking blood everywhere and might not make it (i.e. heroic sacrifice, Pyrrhic victory, new dramatic tension, etc)"

It's a trope, and one that can be very fun to play with. Not everyone's cup of tea perhaps, but I can really see this working. I am going to continue pondering it...

 

[pemerton]

So, "My buddy takes a few moments to tie a quick bandage around my cuts" = laughably unbelievable (because it must literally be six seconds!) and "In the thick of battle, I need Bob to inspire my endurance back permanently, but once the battle's over, I can inspire myself all I want" = juuust fine (in fact, absolutely essential to playing a Warlord!)

I don't understand "once the battle's over, I can inspire myself all I want". Spending healing surges in a short rest isn't about inspiration. (Though it can involve that, if a bard uses the relevant class ability to boost hp regained per surge.)

But yes, I do find the idea that one PC would bandage another's wound while in the midst of melee laughable. I have never encountered that in any piece of fantasy fiction, whereas inspired recovery is a well-established trope.

 

[pming]

Hiya.

In general, I don't like the idea of a "healing surge'. To me it goes directly against one of the core driving forces behind D&D; limited resources encouraging thoughtfulness, preparation, and teamwork.

I'd be much happier with a good, solid "healing" section of the rules. The basic healing rules should be really just that, basic. You heal X hp over X period of time. Add on's could then throw in factors to the mix. You heal X in X time, with a bonus of +/-X if condition A. You could keep 'upping' the healing amount or lessen the healing time, or both.

But, the bottom line is that the game should assume what the original game did; hit points are finite and dwindle the longer one adventures. Hit points recover the longer one rests. Having "instant healing because I want to" goes so far against the D&D base that I don't think it should even be an option.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Ahnehnois]

Running a 10th level, or even 20th level, 4e PC is not as hard as running a 10th level A&D caster. I would say it's more like running a 5th-ish level caster, and without the memorisation requirements. (Some controllers might be an exception, because of the need to mange all their fiddly differences in effects.)

I guess the thing with (pre-4e) casters is that past a certain point, some spells become irrelevant. If you're a 10th level caster, you probably only use a few 1st level spells for very specialized purposes, and likely will never run out. So at some point, the complexity stops accumulating, in practice, because certain elements of your character lose their importance.

In any case, a 5th level caster is extremely complicated, far more so than simply tracking vp and wp or a simple set of nonspecific injuries,