D&D 5E Second Wind: Yes or No?

[Bluenose]

The most obvious reason to answer no to this sort of question is space, both physical space and design space. Why develop the existing health system in a way that many people dislike when it can be developed in other, better ways (which could accomplish the same goal better)? It isn't a question of harm so much as waste.

The "existing health system" has a definition of hit points that doesn't preclude Second Wind as a mechanic. Why should it not be included, and what are these "other, better ways" to accomplish the same goal?

 

[billd91]

I agree with there not being a limit on healing in a day. In 4e it works because of the way powers work, but in previous editions healing is "theoretically" limited by spells per a day. Curbing wands, potions, and scrolls would limit healing as well, and for some, that feels like a better alternative than saying a person only has so much capacity to be healed.

And yes, that is also limiting healing but by limiting access to it. I personally don't think it's a 'terrible' idea, I would just rather see it limited by access and not biology (which is what healing surges feel like to me).

I whole-heartedly agree. Putting a limit on the reception of healing was a bad idea. Limits belong on the provision of healing, in part, because that can be supplemented with planning and investment. Putting a limit on the reception also limits the ability of the party to cooperate to help the worst-off member when bad luck strikes unevenly.

 

[Klaus]

I whole-heartedly agree. Putting a limit on the reception of healing was a bad idea. Limits belong on the provision of healing, in part, because that can be supplemented with planning and investment. Putting a limit on the reception also limits the ability of the party to cooperate to help the worst-off member when bad luck strikes unevenly.

No, it's actually a good idea. Making mundabe nealing limited by healing surges/hit dice creates a limit that is important to simulate "attrition", allowing for heroic action while acknowledging the limits of the human(oid) body. Magical healing should then be allowed to bypass that limit (straight up healing hit points without spending resources like hit dice, healer kit uses or even time).

 

[TwoSix]

I whole-heartedly agree. Putting a limit on the reception of healing was a bad idea. Limits belong on the provision of healing, in part, because that can be supplemented with planning and investment. Putting a limit on the reception also limits the ability of the party to cooperate to help the worst-off member when bad luck strikes unevenly.

The limit is only a baseline. There are several (magic) powers that allow you to regain healing surges. Plus Comrade's Succor (a ritual) does exactly what you said, allow the party to help out a member who's been targeted unevenly.

 

[Texicles]

I mean, why not put every conceivable thing into the game? There's no reason not to, right?

You say this sarcastically, I say this semi-seriously. Obviously I don't expect everything to be included in DDN, but things like Second Wind are not the sort of thing that takes huge design space. You could make a pretty comprehensive optional rule with tons of the proverbial dials (i.e. per encounter, per day, per level, etc.) in about 3 paragraphs.

I get that design space is limited, even in a tabletop game, but I don't think it's quite as precious as people seem to think. This is especially true when it comes to optional rules that essentially already exist in other editions. Granted, such things need to be adapted for the particulars of 5e and maybe playtested a bit, but not to the degree that the core things should.

I like Second Wind (for some things, but not all) and said that it should be optional. If I want my game to have an extra-heroic vibe, with pivotal moments that things like Second Wind can help create, I'd use it. If I wanted my game to be ordinary schmoes in extraordinary circumstances, I wouldn't.

Even if I loved the mechanic with the most fervent of passions, I'd still say optional, because I don't wish to foist a non-essential mechanic -- that some dislike wholesale and some dislike circumstantially -- on anyone. By the same token, the no vote is, IMHO, kinda bogus. Saying no here just reminds me of the, I-don't-like-X-class-so-DDN-shouldn't-have-it threads and posts from back in June-ish.

If I could talk to the Devs and tell them what I want in DDN, I would say, I'd like it to have all the things please. And if you don't have the time/space/ability to include X, Y or Z, well, that's a bummer man, but I don't want the game to lack any class/module/option for lack of trying to get it in there.

 

[Garthanos]

The limit is only a baseline. There are several (magic) powers that allow you to regain healing surges. Plus Comrade's Succor (a ritual) does exactly what you said, allow the party to help out a member who's been targeted unevenly.

We call that ritual... Blood Bonding (particularly when used by the Warlord - cutting palms and so on.)

Clerics also have a few surgeless heals - and a Paladin spends his own heals on his allies... (I think of it as empathic healing)

Healing with real limits actually has far more dignity.

In real life Doctors say Ive done all I can for him now its up to the patient. And faith healers say its the subjects faith that empowers the miracle they just lead the way.... The recipient of heals being the resources bearer is basically conforming to life.

 

[Jester David]

Second Wind is neat but all it adds is complexity.
Complexity to choosing your actions in an Encounter, complexity to designing Encounters where everyone has 125% their hitpoints, complexity to skill use if it can be triggered by Heal, etc.
This is not bad, but it's certainly not good, which makes it a poor fit for the base game that values simplicity.

Even in the Standard or Advanced game it shouldn't be an assumption It requires reworking all the math for the adventuring day and by increasing the expected number of Encounters it changes the number of spells expected to be used. Or Encounters have to be made that much harder to encourage use of the Second Wind, or that much longer so its use is more advantageous.

 

[Sunseeker]

Second Wind is neat but all it adds is complexity.
Complexity to choosing your actions in an Encounter, complexity to designing Encounters where everyone has 125% their hitpoints, complexity to skill use if it can be triggered by Heal, etc.
This is not bad, but it's certainly not good, which makes it a poor fit for the base game that values simplicity.

Even in the Standard or Advanced game it shouldn't be an assumption It requires reworking all the math for the adventuring day and by increasing the expected number of Encounters it changes the number of spells expected to be used. Or Encounters have to be made that much harder to encourage use of the Second Wind, or that much longer so its use is more advantageous.

Sure, but again, this goes back to the previous points of "Everything adds complexity, so why add anything at all?"

How does Second Wind add more complexity than say, Maneuvers, or Vancian spell casting(which I personally consider more complex but will be in the "basic" game) or using HD to regain HP?

If you really want to make it totally optional but still Core, make it a feat....but then it becomes kinda like Toughness...everyone takes it eventually, and if it's something everyone wants, why make them waste precious feats on it?

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

Sure, but again, this goes back to the previous points of "Everything adds complexity, so why add anything at all?"

How does Second Wind add more complexity than say, Maneuvers, or Vancian spell casting(which I personally consider more complex but will be in the "basic" game) or using HD to regain HP?

If you really want to make it totally optional but still Core, make it a feat....but then it becomes kinda like Toughness...everyone takes it eventually, and if it's something everyone wants, why make them waste precious feats on it?

His argument is that all it adds is complexity. Having 20 hp and a healing surge is mathematically identical to having 25 hp, except that you the former requires you to sacrifice an action.

That's a bit wrong, because it also adds a tactical decision point, though I'm not sure it's one worth having in addition to other forms of healing. I feel that healing potions better fill that role.

As for making it something like a feat, the solution to a feat like toughness isn't to give it for free, but to remove it from the game entirely. We don't need feat choices that just grant bigger numbers.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

His argument is that all it adds is complexity. Having 20 hp and a healing surge is mathematically identical to having 25 hp, except that you the former requires you to sacrifice an action.

That's a bit wrong, because it also adds a tactical decision point, though I'm not sure it's one worth having in addition to other forms of healing. I feel that healing potions better fill that role.

I agree that it is the wrong conclusion, but I also disagree that healing potions or other magic 'better' fills the role (objectively). I like the Second Wind mechanic for its dramatic turnaround potential, reducing reliance on magic, and the tactical consideration.

I don't expect everyone to agree with my preferences, but I expect the option to be present in the game, along with a healing surge like mechanic.