D&D 5E Second Wind: Yes or No?

[Jester David]

Sure, but again, this goes back to the previous points of "Everything adds complexity, so why add anything at all?"

For the base game you really shouldn't.
Come other variants, yes you can absolutely increase the complexity and more options are good.

How does Second Wind add more complexity than say, Maneuvers, or Vancian spell casting(which I personally consider more complex but will be in the "basic" game) or using HD to regain HP?

It isn't but the Vancian magic is an example of irreducible complexity where it cannot be removed without the game losing something that makes it D&D, something identifiable and unique to the game.

If you really want to make it totally optional but still Core, make it a feat....but then it becomes kinda like Toughness...everyone takes it eventually, and if it's something everyone wants, why make them waste precious feats on it?

Then people will just complain it's a feat tax.
It works great as an optional add on. Just thing thing you can add overtop the rules. It's the perfect example of something DMs can just drop into their campaign. Once per Encounter you can spend your action to heal your Con modifier + 1/2 your level in hitpoints. BAM, self healing.

 

[Jester David]

I think healing is outright more interesting in 4e than previously.
In 4e I have a number of different kinds of healing they can be distinguished in part where the power comes from

• Surgeless Healing (Clerics were one of the few who had this)
• Surge Based Healing (Most common including Second Wind and non-cleric healers).
• Healing using surges from the one performing the Healing.(Like the Paladins healing touch you could call this empathic)

True, but it doesn't make for a great baseline when trying to emulate the previous thirty-five years of the game. Nor does it work well when trying to design a system where the base rules can fit onto sixteen pages. I've seen menus with a larger word count than they currently want for the rules of the game.

 

[Falling Icicle]

That's a pretty broad statement. Any particular reason you feel that way?

I don't like having a per-character limit on how much someone can be healed each day. In the past, the resources for healing were assigned to the source of the healing, not its target. In 4e, they transfered that to the character receiving the healing. I think that was a huge mistake. It puts a finite limit on how much a character can be healed in a day. When the resources are on the healer side, even if the cleric runs out of spells, you can use wands or potions, or find another healer. There is no set limit on healing other than what the party is able to come by in that situation. This gives DMs freedom to extend the workday if needed.

When a player has healing surges, and runs out, you can't heal him anymore - period. He's done. It doesn't matter if you find more potions, if the cleric has more spells, etc. This forces the party to rest for one character's sake. I also think it's bizarre that even divine magic can't heal someone once they're "exhausted." On the contrary, it's when a character doesn't think he can go on, and the cleric gives him the strength to press on, that the cleric has the chance to shine. Instead, with healing surges, he tries to inject divine power into the person and gets an "ERROR - target is out of healing surges."

I also don't like it because it creates a strange disconnect between PC game mechanics and those of NPCs. Only PCs have healing surges. So if I come by a dying villager, can I not heal him? Most DMs would handwave the issue away and say yes, but technically, by the RAW, the answer is no. I'm not suggesting that NPCs should have to use all of the same rules as PCs, but I do think that while they can be built differently, they should still follow the same basic rules. It also means that there is no sacrifice on the part of the PC when healing NPCs. Healing Word is an encounter resource, and since it doesn't "cost" the cleric anything to use it (the only "cost" is paid by the target of the healing), he can go around healing the sick and injured with impunity. The NPC healing thing isn't a huge issue, I'll admit, it just further adds to the disconnect that healing surges cause.

Just to be clear, I like Second Wind. I think PCs should have some ability to recover without a healer. I don't even mind there being an encounter and/or daily limit on that. I just don't like how healing surges put a cap on ALL healing, including magic healing received from other sources.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

I don't like having a per-character limit on how much someone can be healed each day. In the past, the resources for healing were assigned to the source of the healing, not its target. In 4e, they transfered that to the character receiving the healing. I think that was a huge mistake. It puts a finite limit on how much a character can be healed in a day. When the resources are on the healer side, even if the cleric runs out of spells, you can use wands or potions, or find another healer. There is no set limit on healing other than what the party is able to come by in that situation. This gives DMs freedom to extend the workday if needed. When a player has healing surges, and runs out, you can't heal him anymore - period. He's done. It doesn't matter if you find more potions, if the cleric has more spells, etc. This forces the party to rest for one character's sake. I also think it's bizarre that even divine magic can't heal someone once they're "exhausted." On the contrary, it's when a character doesn't think he can go on, and the cleric gives him the strength to press on. Instead, with healing surges, he tries to inject divine power into the person and gets an "ERROR - target is out of healing surges."

Aside from the fact that several of your assertions are factually untrue, isn't this just an individual preference? Characterizing the mechanics as "a huge mistake" is overstating the case.

But to address the inaccuracies here, in 4e there still remain many, many ways in which magic healing can bypass the need for the target to have healing surges. There are a ton of cleric powers that heal the target without requiring them to spend a surge, including the iconic Cure Wounds series. Same goes for many Paladin powers, including the iconic Lay On Hands ability (it uses the Paladin's surges). Several magic items, including several potions, also allow healing without surges.

So basing your entire argument on that one point is a questionable choice.

I also don't like it because it creates a strange disconnect between PC game mechanics and those of NPCs. Only PCs have healing surges. So if I come by a dying villager, can I not heal him? Most DMs would handwave the issue away and say yes, but technically, by the RAW, the answer is no. I'm not suggesting that NPCs should have to use all of the same rules as PCs, but I do think that while they can be built differently, they should still follow the same basic rules. It also means that there is no sacrifice on the part of the PC when healing NPCs. Healing Word is an encounter resource, and since it doesn't "cost" the cleric anything to use it (the only "cost" is paid by the target of the healing), he can go around healing the sick and injured with impunity. The NPC healing thing is a huge issue, I'll admit, it just further adds to the disconnect that healing surges cause.

Again, this is not correct. All NPCs and monsters are assumed to have one healing surge per tier, at minimum. As DM, you can decide to give them extra based on their plot importance, Con mod, or role. If you're going to make an argument for your preferences against the rules of the current game, it helps to actually know or read the rules you're arguing against. This stuff was in the PHB (page 293), so it's not like it was some kind of secret errata that came out much later.

Just to be clear, I like Second Wind. I think PCs should have some ability to recover without a healer. I don't even mind there being an encounter and/or daily limit on that. I just don't like how healing surges put a cap on ALL healing, including magic healing received from other sources.

Good thing they don't then, eh?

 

[Falling Icicle]

Aside from the fact that several of your assertions are factually untrue, isn't this just an individual preference?

Of course it is. Obviously, I'm just expressing my opinion. Feel free to disagree.

But to address the inaccuracies here, in 4e there still remain many, many ways in which magic healing can bypass the need for the target to have healing surges. There are a ton of cleric powers that heal the target without requiring them to spend a surge, including the iconic Cure Wounds series. Same goes for many Paladin powers, including the iconic Lay On Hands ability (it uses the Paladin's surges). Several magic items, including several potions, also allow healing without surges.

So basing your entire argument on that one point is a questionable choice.

Ok. It's been some time since I've played 4e, so I was just going off memory. And while you're correct that there are a few things that can heal without surges, most healing abilities do use surges, IIRC. I remember potions using surges as well. Perhaps the potions you mention were introduced in a later book after I stopped playing.

Again, this is not correct. All NPCs and monsters are assumed to have one healing surge per tier, at minimum. As DM, you can decide to give them extra based on their plot importance, Con mod, or role. If you're going to make an argument for your preferences against the rules of the current game, it helps to actually know or read the rules you're arguing against. This stuff was in the PHB (page 293), so it's not like it was some kind of secret errata that came out much later.

I wasn't aware of that rule. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

Ok. It's been some time since I've played 4e, so I was just going off memory. And while you're correct that there are a few things that can heal without surges, most healing abilities do use surges, IIRC. I remember potions using surges as well. Perhaps the potions you mention were introduced in a later book after I stopped playing.

Most of the non-magical sources of healing use surges, but a lot of the magical ones don't. Particularly, but not exclusively, from Divine classes. Clerics in particular have surgeless healing options at pretty much every level, including an at-will (from Divine Power).

The surgeless potions were added later, presumably after you stopped playing.

And healing a dying character that is out of surges still helps, even when they're out of surges - they still get restored to 1hp. Not much, but enough to keep from dying. Then, a night's rest, and they're good to go again.

While I feel this is too quick a recovery for someone who was beaten to within an inch of their life, I have some houserules that were easy to implement that basically take care of that. The rules I use are basically what the Next designers are calling a 'dial' which I have set somewhere like 2/3rds between cinematic and gritty.

I wasn't aware of that rule. Thanks for pointing that out.

You're welcome. Forgive me for being so aggressive about correcting you, but it really, really grates my cheese when people make arguments about or against 4e using misconceptions or in other cases, things that are flat-out not true.

 

[Falling Icicle]

You're welcome. Forgive me for being so aggressive about correcting you, but it really, really grates my cheese when people make arguments about or against 4e using misconceptions or in other cases, things that are flat-out not true.

I understand. There are actually alot of things I liked about 4e, and I've been sad to see the baby thrown out with the bath water in 5e.

 

[Garthanos]

If you think about it.. the rarity of surgeless healing or healing that is empathically conveyed makes them all the more special.

"Unicorn's Touch" is a swordmages spell. I like the concept of the sword becoming a channel for the horn of the unicorn which is one of the power sources in my game world associated with regeneration and similar healing, both a weapon and an instrument of life. Its surgeless ...

 

[Hussar]

If you think about it.. the rarity of surgeless healing or healing that is empathically conveyed makes them all the more special.

"Unicorn's Touch" is a swordmages spell. I like the concept of the sword becoming a channel for the horn of the unicorn which is one of the power sources in my game world associated with regeneration and similar healing, both a weapon and an instrument of life. Its surgeless ...

Thing is, it's not that rare.

Clerics get a raft of surgeless healing powers. Pretty much 1/level if they want it. Paladin's get a number of either healing powers, or a boatload of temp HP powers. Fighters got a fair number of powers like the 2nd level Boundless Endurance which grants regeneration 2+Con when you're bloodied or the level 9 Victorious Surge that grants you a HS worth of Hp on a hit. Strikers don't get much though. But warlords do get some. Level 6 Stand tough grants 10+Cha HP to all allies in a burst 5.

In a given group, even just using the PHB, it would not be unusual for every single character to be able to grant a fair number of surgeless HP/day. And that's not counting magic items. And it's certainly not counting temp HP which are cheap by the dozen.

 

[pemerton]

Having 20 hp and a healing surge is mathematically identical to having 25 hp

Not really. Having $20 in my wallet and an IOU for $5 is not equivalent to having $25 in my wallet.

The amount someone will pay for a $5 IOU varies, depending on the risk of default they anticipate - but I don't think anyone would pay face value. Likewise for a healing surge - there is always the risk that it will end up being unable to be unlocked.

except that you the former requires you to sacrifice an action.

<snip>

it also adds a tactical decision point

Which is what makes it not mathematically equivalent at all.

And as you note, is also what introduces the need for a decision point.

I feel that healing potions better fill that role.

There are potions in my game, which the PCs use during combat. I tolerate this as a D&D trope, but am not a big fan - the idea of chugging a drink while engaged in melee is in my view pretty ridiculous. Potions are something that, in my view, should aid recovery when resting after a fight. Whereas second wind, inspiring words and the like are what restore vitality during a fight.

I don't like having a per-character limit on how much someone can be healed each day.

<snip>

When a player has healing surges, and runs out, you can't heal him anymore - period.

As others have pointed out, this is simply not true of 4e.

What I think is worth adding is that the existence of surgeless healing helps reinforce what is happening, in the fiction, when a PC spends a surge. Even when a cleric uses Healing Word or Word of Vigour, the PC is not being "divinely healed": the PC, rather, is being divinely inspired - but the inspiration draws on the PC's own inner reserves.

That is part of what makes the paladin's Lay on Hands distinctive - it is the paladin who makes the sacrifice and infuses vigour into the PC.