D&D 5E Second Wind: Yes or No?

[Sunseeker]

His argument is that all it adds is complexity. Having 20 hp and a healing surge is mathematically identical to having 25 hp, except that you the former requires you to sacrifice an action.

So then, it's not mathematically identical because the weighted value of "an action" depends on the circumstances. In a low-intensity fight, you have 20 HP and are unlikely to need to use "Second Wind", while in a high-intensity fight, you might very well need it, thus the value of the action required to use it changes. In the first fight, it doesn't matter if you use it so the action cost is low, in the latter fight, both second wind's value and it's action cost are high.

So 25hp and 20HP+SW are not mathematically identical because the value of SW is variable.

It's like saying SW is an X value, but this is the equation needed to solve for X:

That's a bit wrong, because it also adds a tactical decision point, though I'm not sure it's one worth having in addition to other forms of healing. I feel that healing potions better fill that role.

You know I never understood the idea of readily available "Healing potions". It seems like the ability to mend life back together in a tasty drink would be darn near philosopher's-stone level of sought after.

As for making it something like a feat, the solution to a feat like toughness isn't to give it for free, but to remove it from the game entirely. We don't need feat choices that just grant bigger numbers.

The problem with Toughness isn't numbers, it's that it's REALLY REALLY REALLY useful for most of the classes in the game.

 

[Garthanos]

Second Wind is neat but all it adds is complexity.
Complexity to choosing your actions in an Encounter, complexity to designing Encounters where everyone has 125% their hitpoints, complexity to skill use if it can be triggered by Heal, etc.
This is not bad, but it's certainly not good, which makes it a poor fit for the base game that values simplicity.

Even in the Standard or Advanced game it shouldn't be an assumption It requires reworking all the math for the adventuring day and by increasing the expected number of Encounters it changes the number of spells expected to be used. Or Encounters have to be made that much harder to encourage use of the Second Wind, or that much longer so its use is more advantageous.

Most all of that complexity is within the design scope not really at the table or in play.

 

[Garthanos]

I agree that it is the wrong conclusion, but I also disagree that healing potions or other magic 'better' fills the role (objectively). I like the Second Wind mechanic for its dramatic turnaround potential, reducing reliance on magic, and the tactical consideration.

I don't expect everyone to agree with my preferences, but I expect the option to be present in the game, along with a healing surge like mechanic.

I think healing is outright more interesting in 4e than previously.
In 4e I have a number of different kinds of healing they can be distinguished in part where the power comes from

• Surgeless Healing (Clerics were one of the few who had this)
• Surge Based Healing (Most common including Second Wind and non-cleric healers).
• Healing using surges from the one performing the Healing.(Like the Paladins healing touch you could call this empathic)

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

I think healing is outright more interesting in 4e than previously.
In 4e I have a number of different kinds of healing they can be distinguished in part where the power comes from

• Surgeless Healing (Clerics were one of the few who had this)
• Surge Based Healing (Most common including Second Wind and non-cleric healers).
• Healing using surges from the one performing the Healing.(Like the Paladins healing touch you could call this empathic)

Yep, I absolutely agree. 4e and all the nuances in its various healing methods is the first time where I feel that healing is interesting mechanically, rather than a necessary evil of the system. Its approach to healing and vitality (via Surges and things like the disease track) is the first time that the health system in the game has made sense. It's more complexity, but it's worth it to me since I find it fosters improved believability without being cumbersome, and better models fatigue than any previous attempt. I also find it more dramatically satisfying.

 

[Grimmjow]

A lot of people want the DDN warlord to have healing powers. What if the warlord could somehow "give" people a second wind? maybe instead of second wind being something anyone can do, it could be something that warlords use to be battle field healers?

 

[Klaus]

I feel that healing potions better fill that role.

If there is one thing, and one thing only, that trivializes magical healing, it is the existence of healing potions. If I can go a campaign without *having* to hand out a single healing potion, or the PCs asking to make/buy a healing potion, I'm a happy camper.

So for me, a second wind ability (even if just once per day) is far superior to healing potions.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

If there is one thing, and one thing only, that trivializes magical healing, it is the existence of healing potions. If I can go a campaign without *having* to hand out a single healing potion, or the PCs asking to make/buy a healing potion, I'm a happy camper.

So for me, a second wind ability (even if just once per day) is far superior to healing potions.

I found the rampant Wand of CLW abuse from 3.x to be worse than potions in any edition, but in general I agree with your point.

 

[Sunseeker]

I found the rampant Wand of CLW abuse from 3.x to be worse than potions in any edition, but in general I agree with your point.

Ideally we shouldn't need or want either. A game can be designed without the need for a dedicated healer. The game can also be designed to allow people to build a dedicated healer if they so choose. But the game shouldn't be designed on the "holy trinity" of "tank, DPS, healer". Because if someone is a healer, that means the damage output needs to be higher to achieve the same results as if we had 5 damagers, which means the damage output of opponents needs to be higher to make them a credible threat...which reinforces the need for a dedicated healer, which then means we need a damage soaker(read: tank)...which means the damagers need to be higher.

All of this works to negate hybrid concepts, skill-monkeys, social characters and basically everything that isn't explicitly designed to deal damage, heal, or tank. While that's great for MMO design due to it's simplicity, I should hope D&D aims to provide a little more color than that.

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

If there is one thing, and one thing only, that trivializes magical healing, it is the existence of healing potions. If I can go a campaign without *having* to hand out a single healing potion, or the PCs asking to make/buy a healing potion, I'm a happy camper.

So for me, a second wind ability (even if just once per day) is far superior to healing potions.

I'm of the opposite opinion. I think potions as a single use resource make the decision of whether or not to heal yourself far more interesting. Once you use the potion, it's gone. Granted, this only works if potions are difficult to come by, which is also my preference.

I suppose, my problem with second wind, and healing surges and the like is that I want less healing available overall. I prefer magical healing to be rare and have a cost, and non-magical healing to be slow enough to make using magical healing a compelling, if difficult choice.

 

[Klaus]

I'm of the opposite opinion. I think potions as a single use resource make the decision of whether or not to heal yourself far more interesting. Once you use the potion, it's gone. Granted, this only works if potions are difficult to come by, which is also my preference.

I suppose, my problem with second wind, and healing surges and the like is that I want less healing available overall. I prefer magical healing to be rare and have a cost, and non-magical healing to be slow enough to make using magical healing a compelling, if difficult choice.

I'd prefer personal healing to be just a smidge below the 4e level.

And at the moment, 1st-level characters can make potions of healing at 25gp a pop, so hardly difficult to come by.