Seeking Practical Advice on...Symbol Spells

[Nail]

I agree, but the triggering mechanism is the symbol.

We may have to agree to disagree, but here's a point we might converge on:

The triggering mechanism is part of the symbol spell.

Whatever the triggering mechanism, that mechanism is part of a trap, as defined in the DMG. Traps can be found by fortunate (or persistant) Rogues.

 

[Nail]

As another (vaguely) interesting point: Many DMs seem to think that you must be able to see the trap to search for it. That is: if the trap is behind a barrier, then the Rogue can't find it.

Then the barrier is removed, and the trap springs on the pesky Rogue.

...but if the barrier is part of the trap, then the RAW states the rogue can, in fact, find it. Rogues can find traps; the ability is not limited to finding any particular part of the trap.

 

[azhrei_fje]

So just out of curiosity...

What is the effect of scribing the symbol of death on a wall and then covering the wall with an illusion? An illusion can be saved against when a character interacts with it. The PCs won't interact with it until they encounter it. Perhaps the illusion puts the vision of a hallway on the wall where the symbol is and the PCs walk right into it, giving them a save. How many PCs would turn down a saving throw roll?

Which means they make the save, the illusion fades from their view, and there's the symbol right in front of them!

 

[Nail]

What is the effect of scribing the symbol of death on a wall and then covering the wall with an illusion?

Is the illusion part of the trap? Yes.

Can a rogue searching the illusionary wall (with or without a successful save) find that it is a trap? Yes.

 

[glass]

Why is not merely not legible when not visible and not legible is also possible?

Because things being visible (or not) is covered elsewhere in the rules.


glass.

 

[glass]

PS I reserve the right to change my mind at a moment's notice. Particularly if I reread this later and wonder if it made any sense at all or if an argument can be made to send me to Arkum.

A man is receiving a tour of an Assylum, and asks the doctors how they decide who needs to be commited. The doctor replies, 'We give the patient a bucket, a spoon and a thimble and ask them to empty a bath'.

The man replies,

Spoiler

'Ah I see, and the sane man would use the bucket, because it is biggest'.

The doctor

Spoiler

looks at him sadly and says, 'No, the sane man would pull the plug. Would you like your padded room to have a view of the mountains or the ocean?'

glass.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Because things being visible (or not) is covered elsewhere in the rules.

That's immaterial if the symbol alters that. Much like the invisibility spell. The argument is whether symbol alters the visibility. I think we've come to the agreement that it could be either way.

 

[interwyrm]

I just wanted to clarify some more logic points. The reason, other than it just, you know, making sense, that the conclusion was drawn that beyond 60ft the symbol could be visible but not legible, and not the other way around (legible but not visible) is there is a second proposition that is really more implicit than explicit.
We've got...
X: Symbol is visible.
Y: Symbol is legible.
and..
P1: If and only if distance<=60, then X&Y=True
P2: Y implies X

converse of P1: if distance >60, (X&Y)=false
equivalent statement: if distance >60, X=false, or Y=false
equivalent statement of P2: !X -> !Y

so... the truth table for distance>60 is
x y
1 f f
2 t f

I'm not sure if I made that clear. In any case, assuming something must be visible to be legible, and beyond 60 feet, the thing is not legible AND visible, then the conclusion is that beyond 60 feet, the object is not legible, but may or may not be visible. savvy?

 

[Vahktang]

Who is this Boolian guy and is he a buddy of Occam?
<JK>

He had a golem standing on top of it. When the golem moved, it revealed the symbol and let the fun ensue. A little rough to an 11th-level party, but my character didn't buy the farm on that one, so I can't complain.

Stealing that.
Thanks.

Why not just put it around the corner, 30' away?
The magic can't go around corners, first one that goes around, saves.
If it suceeds, everybody backs up and figures out how to disable it.
If they don't, it could end up the light grenade scene from Mom & Dad save the universe.

 

[Stormrunner]

Well, here's my take:

Can you see the Symbol before you set it off?

Why yes, yes you can.

IF you make your DC 33 Search check.

And no, you can't take 20 when searching for traps, because there's a "consequence for failure". Say you've got a tiled hallway and you suspect some of the tiles are pressure-plate triggers. You can "take 10" which is being slow and cautious("Before each step I carefully examine the tile I'm about to step on") but not "take 20" which is trying every possible combination ("I step on every single tile to see if any of them are trapped.")