seems like monsters cannot hide anymore

[Mark1733]

Maybe I am not leveraging the rules or scenarios well, but it seems like all the PCs in my campaign all have big listen and spot skill check modifiers such that monsters are not sneaking up on them or surprising them. How are your monsters effectively hiding and moving silently as characters gain more levels?

Granted, I tend to roll a single skill check roll (per skill) for all creatures (of the same type) in an encounter. I can break up such monster groups into a couple of rolls or individually.

Also, I probably need to reread the rules around concealment and cover for more effective application of the skills.

Thoughts?

 

[delericho]

Technically, you're supposed to make one roll per hiding monster per seeking character. That is, if there are 3 monsters and 4 PCs, that would be 24 rolls (or 48 if you're doing both Hide/Spot and Move Silently/Listen). But I don't think anyone really bothers with that.

Unfortunately, all those rolls massively favour the 'seeking' side - because if the monster is hidden from some PCs but not others, the ones who are aware will almost certainly alert their colleagues. That's a weakness in the rules... though it's probably also realistic, if we're honest.

As for solving the underlying problem, though, the solution is to look at ways to bypass those Spot/Listen checks entirely. Make use of darkness, invisibility and similar powers for concealment; make use of plane shift and similar to have the opponents make attacks from the Ethereal plane. And so on, and so forth.

Basically, as with so many things in 3e, once you get above a fairly low level, mundane skills become obselete, and magic rules the day.

 

[Umbran]

Basically, as with so many things in 3e, once you get above a fairly low level, mundane skills become obselete, and magic rules the day.

Except it is a mundane skill (Spot or Listen) that's so good as to cause the problem!

The PCs have invested to have high spot and listen. So, let them enjoy the benefits. Of course, let them also enjoy the detriments - having everyone highly invested in those skills means there are other areas in which they are weak. Exploit those!

 

[delericho]

Except it is a mundane skill (Spot or Listen) that's so good as to cause the problem!

Heh. Good point.

Well... sort of, I guess. A well-placed invisibility or silence solves the problem, at the cost of rendering the skills effectively useless.

 

[billd91]

You can also make use of circumstances and distance and not just magic. Particularly favorable hiding terrain could give the hiding creature a +2 or more to their check. Some monsters get bonuses in particular circumstances (check out spiders in the Monster Manual for some examples). Don't forget to impose -1 on spot/listen checks per 10' of range. That may not help when right up close, but imagine a lion charging out of the tall grass (where her Hide bonus was 9 higher than her base listed Hide) starting up to 80 feet away (where the penalty to spot was -8).

As a practical consideration, when you may impose a number of bonuses or penalties, I find it easier to note down the DC the PCs need to beat rather than roll at the same time. You could pre-roll these checks, but I usually just take 10 for the NPCs for ease. We all do it for combat checks and saving throw DCs already (where do you think the 10 comes from), so I usually do that for opposed skill checks as well with my NPCs setting the DCs the PCs need to beat.

 

[Umbran]

Heh. Good point.

Well... sort of, I guess. A well-placed invisibility or silence solves the problem, at the cost of rendering the skills effectively useless.

True. But a few monsters/NPCs who are more skilled at Hide and Move Silently also solve the problem. The GM is by no means required to take the monsters strictly by the rulebooks, after all.

Ultimately, the point s to keep the party challenged. If the party has spend a lot of their available skills on not being surprised, well, they shouldn't be surprised very often. That's okay. They can win most of those. If you're presenting a well-rounded campaign, they'll be failing at some other skill area.

 

[GMMichael]

OP: if your monsters are going to surprise your PCs, they must be aware of the PCs first. Then they have to be sneaky. PCs can't make spot checks if the enemies have full concealment (unless you want to reward a really high roll with evidence of an enemy). And listen checks are REALLY hard for an enemy who's doing nothing but breathing (don't forget the 10' rule).

Even if your monsters don't earn a surprise round, they can still get the jump on PCs and win initiative.

 

[Mark1733]

Like I said, I need to reread the rules. I was not accounting for every 10' rule. thats a huge difference. thanks again for the great guidance.

 

[Greenfield]

Consider also the -5 Spot/Listen penalty for being distracted. In essence, when they say they're looking/listeing for trouble, they get their full bonus.

The rest of the time, they're at -5.

Consider a circumstance modifier for the monsters, if they're setting an ambush in an area they know well. That is, they already know the good hiding places because they've used them before.

Also, while it only takes one person to notice hiding monsters and warn the party, you said that everyone had high numbers. Did you check to see if they actually have as many ranks as they claim? Spot and Listen are cross-class for most classes, and the max number of skill points they can invest in any one skill is Level+3.

I had a conversation with a relatively new player recently, regarding this. He hadn't realized the level +3 limit, thinking that that applied only at 1st level. He also thought that, once his character had taken a dip into a class like Rogue, that all of the Rogue skills were now "in class" forever more. They aren't. (Look under "Multi-classing" in the PHB. It's in that region.)

Once his character was rebuilt with those rules in mind, his +30 Spot checks vanished. Maybe yours will too.

 

[Stormonu]

If you are rolling once for the monsters, you could have the party follow suit - they make one roll and you simply apply each member's modifier.

If they are still making the checks, what others suggested may work - concealment, spells or other situational modifiers.

Just remember though that they did put the points in perception to be good at it. Nullifying them at every turn would be like punishing a group of players who made characters good at fighting face creatures beyond their capabilities every time.