Sehanine's Reversal, Death and Dying, and NPCs

[Stalker0]

I'm fairly certain Death Save != Saving Throw, though I don't have the books yet. They share a similar name and mechanic, but unless the bonus to saves some races have apply to the Death Save, they'd be distinct from a rules perspective.

Considering 4e went to such pains to standardize everything, especially the saving throw mechanic, I can't see death saving throws suddenly not being saving throws.

 

[Andur]

My gut instinct says that the condition has to be imposed upon you by a power. Death is imposed upon you by the depletion of hit points.

So I'd rule that Sehanine's Reversal is only good against conditions which are imposed upon you and state they last until a save is made.

BTW, as far as i can tell a saving throw is a saving throw, a deah saving throw is no different than a poison saving through or a dazed saving throw. However, as stated above, I believe the intent is for imposed conditions, not conditions that happen due to resource depletion...

 

[Grazzt]

I'm fairly certain Death Save != Saving Throw, though I don't have the books yet. They share a similar name and mechanic, but unless the bonus to saves some races have apply to the Death Save, they'd be distinct from a rules perspective.

I tend to agree with this. Death saves are specifically called "death save" or "death saving throw".

Also- at the beginning of the Saving Throws section it says 'when you're under a persistent effect or condition that can be ended by a save ("save ends")'...blah blah blah...'you make a saving throw'.

I don't recall seeing dying in any of the monster blocks or dropping to 0 hit points saying '(save ends)' after it.

Then again, you could rule that since monsters/NPCs die at 0, they don't have a 'dying condition'. So- the feat wouldnt work against them anyway.

 

[malraux]

In addition, death saving throws use a different mechanic than saving throws. DSTs are 1-9 = one step closer to death, 10-19 = nothing happens, 20 = use a healing surge, whereas ST are 1-9 = nothing happens, 10-20 = condition ends.

 

[hong]

I don't think I'd have a problem with transferring the dying condition to an NPC. In powergaming terms, any ability that depends on 1) a natural 20; 2) you being at -ve hp in the first place, isn't that great. It's more about flashiness.

Anyway, just because NPCs automatically die at 0 hp normally doesn't mean they can't be "dying" if that condition somehow gets applied to them. They would then be out cold and have to make saves to avoid death, just like PCs.

 

[Aria Silverhands]

If I hadn't read this thread, I would have let it work once and then barred its abuse in any further games.

 

[eleran]

I don't think I'd have a problem with transferring the dying condition to an NPC. In powergaming terms, any ability that depends on 1) a natural 20; 2) you being at -ve hp in the first place, isn't that great. It's more about flashiness.

Anyway, just because NPCs automatically die at 0 hp normally doesn't mean they can't be "dying" if that condition somehow gets applied to them. They would then be out cold and have to make saves to avoid death, just like PCs.

Speaking of knocking critters dead at 0 HP. Did anyone else notice this on pg 295 of PHB?

If you knock a critter to 0 HP or less you can choose to render them unconscious instead of dead. They are considered unconscious but not dying until they get a rest or healing.

Looks like 4e non-lethal damage to me.

 

[alanpossible]

Surely the "dying" condition ends as soon as you have > 0 hit points, regardless of whether you make the save or not.

So, I'd rule yes, you transfer the condition. Then, as they have more than 0 hit points, the condition ends.