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Selfish playstyles and other newer issues with the game

Gnashtooth

First Post
So, I've been playing D&D for about 20 years now, since early in 2nd edition. Over time, I've watched the game evolve, and played with different groups. I have to say, I'm having a hard time these days. Every release of the game, I've tried to be optimistic about it and push through even when there are rules changes I don't like that are clearly affecting the game adversely. However, what I've seen is a move toward introverted play. Players are paying less or no attention until their turn comes up, or they need healing. This makes people playing healers extremely pissed off, and I've played with other folks as mages who aren't being protected or are outright killed in combat because everyone else is off doing their own thing. It used to be where the players stuck close together in combat so the guy with the polearm could hit over the dwarf, and the cleric was within reach of everyone for healing, but those days seem to be gone. What happened?
 

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You know, I’ve seen the same thing. Other than the cleric, most PCs in my group would rather attack than take a round to stabilize a dying companion. Some in my group just charge in without any strategy or thoughts of working as a team. The most recent character death was directly a result of the group not working together, and it was almost a TPK.

And in Adventurer’s League play, it seems like my bard ends up responsible for healing magic much of the time.

I’m not sure what gives. For me, it started in 4e, when most characters got to be nigh-invincible. But I don’t know if that’s just a timing issue, or an actual root cause.
 


It's a group/play style thing, and not so much a system thing.

If you really want this in your group, you should probably talk to them about it.

Then you should probably spend a year or two playing in an old school style that has high PC death rate, all PC's over at 1st level, and mega-dungeon delving from a near by haven dynamics. You can create that sort of dynamic with any system with a bit of careful thought once you understand the system as a GM.

Beware system optimization though. Be on the look out for players that don't improve their tactics/coordinate, but simply try to face new challenges with more optimized characters. 3e D&D will be especially bad in this regard, but you can see it in any system (though it usually involves some sort of cheating when it turns up in 1e, often by rolling lots of characters until you get one with stats you want). You might want to have a 'stick to core' type rule when it comes to chargen. 5e seems a little less hard to optimize. 4e requires you to crank up the difficult level in a thoughtful way. 1e/2e is built on these assumptions, but tends to have very poor system balance that will push the party toward certain classes particularly post UA. So don't expect a lot of single class thieves in the long run, and you probably won't see a lot of non-humans in the long run either because they stall out in the mid-levels unless you apply cheese liberally.
 


Are we talking about the GAME, or the PLAYERS? It's a stereotype, but the current belief system holds that "millennials" are more self-centered than non-millennials.
 

Are we talking about the GAME, or the PLAYERS? It's a stereotype, but the current belief system holds that "millennials" are more self-centered than non-millennials.

I'm finding the opposite, it seems to be more with players who had exposure to previous editions. The younger folks I've gamed with don't seem to have any expectations. I've actually seen several friends I've known for 10 or 20 years move to this type of play style, and if they are regular MMO players, the problem gets far, far worse.
 

I'm finding the opposite, it seems to be more with players who had exposure to previous editions. The younger folks I've gamed with don't seem to have any expectations. I've actually seen several friends I've known for 10 or 20 years move to this type of play style, and if they are regular MMO players, the problem gets far, far worse.


So computers are killing it? Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised. The more connected everybody is with computers & social media, the more distant people become. It's a contradictory quandary.
 

I'm finding the opposite, it seems to be more with players who had exposure to previous editions. The younger folks I've gamed with don't seem to have any expectations. I've actually seen several friends I've known for 10 or 20 years move to this type of play style, and if they are regular MMO players, the problem gets far, far worse.

Ahh... that. I'm not sure it is what you think it is.

It been true for me that in general, the more experienced the player is, the worse that they are at RPing. It's the only hobby I know where skill on average tends to go down with time, and greater devotion to the hobby seems to go with reduced devotion to the craft.

I don't know what to do about it. I don't know if the problem is that there really is some legitimacy to the idea that playing RPG's as an adult is a sign of poor maturation or socialization, or if the problem is that the gaming experience trains into the player the wrong habits, or if older gamers are more often to have gaming baggage from being burned, or if it's just adults just get worse and worse at games of make believe over time, or if these people are still playing out of habit despite the fact the game is no longer engaging too them, but it's really annoying. In general, some of the most beautifully done RP comes from players under the age of 18. The tend to play their characters. They tend to pay attention. They tend to imagine the environment and interact with it. They tend to actually role-play. They tend to have the expectation that they are their to entertain others as they entertain themselves. They tend to work together (unless their characters really wouldn't). They are creative (though, sometimes, maybe too creative).

Older more experienced players tend to just plug into the rules and interact primarily with the rules. They are more likely to metagame. They are more likely to cheat. It's not having new players or 'munchkins' (in the classic definition of a younger player) that I worry about, but having older more experienced ones.

I don't think you can blame MMO's for anything except perhaps the short attention span. Particularly if they are a long time MMO player, most MMO's put a very very high premium on cooperative end game play, were everyone has to engage in the complex dance or the whole party wipes. And MMO's themselves have tended over time to experience the same problem you are observing, with fewer and fewer percentages of the player base willing to put up with cooperation being required between large groups or tactical problems requiring high degrees of skill over long periods of time.

Of course, I complain but my current group of older players - despite not yet proving to be dogs that can learn new tricks - isn't all bad. The campaign has gone on for longer than any prior campaign I've ran (although, since its 4 hours every 8 weeks rather than 8 hours a week, I'm not sure it's the most time ever in a campaign). I think people are looking forward to it, and there hasn't been a lot of table drama.

I don't have a solution for you, except that I think the 'bug' is likely to be somewhere other than where you are looking for it. It could be boredom has set in, and you need to shake things up to draw interest back to the game. And I think you need to question whether you need to just jump off and adapt to a new edition just because there is a new edition. I'm still playing what is largely 3.0e, having decided that though 3e was a big upgrade from 1e that fixed many of my problems with that edition (and made a lot of new ones) that the editions since then are less huge improvements. I think I could get into 5e, but don't see a need for it for at least 4-5 more years, by which time I may be so set in my ways that I can't change anyway. (Gping back to DMing 1e after 13 years DMing 3e proved to be a huge mental challenge, and rather unsatisfying.)
 

Maybe the increase in optimization, er, options, is to blame for this behavior? Sure, there has always been an element of that in play, but it’s only increased over time. I don’t think the argument boils down to just powergamer vs. role-player, certainly. But the biggest min-maxers I’ve played with have been the ones most likely to just go in on their own, proverbial guns blazing, and trust to their optimizations to see them through.

Beware system optimization though. Be on the look out for players that don't improve their tactics/coordinate, but simply try to face new challenges with more optimized characters.
 

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