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D&D 5E Sell 5th edition to a 4th edition fan...

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Fanaelialae

Legend
Disclaimer:
While many people disliked 4th edition for many valid reasons, I'll ask that you bear with me on this. My group and I really loved it, in fact it was our best edition ever. We play together since 1st edition mostly. For us, we did not care that the game encourages combat, because we can do roleplay by our own. By comparison, it seems to us that all other editions (including Pathfinder, which we played for a couple of years) is just boring or broken in some ways (control magic arg!). The inclusion of solos, elites and minions, of Action Points, of Essentials-type classes and powers (which we played much more than standard classes), etc made the game and the fights much more interesting to us.
I understand not everyone feels the same way, but my group is really attached to 4th edition for these reasons and others.

So, with that out of the way, can people who really got to play 5th edition help me get enthused by this edition??
In our eyes, 5th is simply going back to older editions that we clearly banned from the table as soon as we really got into 4th edition.
I read the 5th books quickly and I cannot seem to sell it to my group.
We're concerned about the lack of support to 4th edition and the coming disappearance of Compendium and Character Builder (they cannot keep it up for long now that they promote 5th, I guess), and we worry that we won't be able to switch to 5th edition and still have the same fun...

Please tell me we're wrong. Explain to me why we don't see the 5th edition in the right way, what we can find satisfactory, keeping in mind what we loved about 4th edition.

Again, my point is not to start a troll fight about editions. Real genuine concern about the eventual inevitability of switching editions.

Thanks!

Last I'd heard they were keeping the Compendium and the Character Builder around indefinitely, although nothing new would be added. Unless I missed something, you should be able to continue with 4e as long as you want, you just won't be seeing any non-homebrewed new material for it. (But currently there's tons more material for 4e than 5e, and due to the slow release schedule, it'll be that way for at least a few years to come.)

That said, my group felt the same way about fourth edition. We loved it, and even created several variant systems based on the 4e core. But when we tried 5e, we liked it even better. It feels like a cross between 4e and older editions. It feels a lot like 4th but somewhat... more open? It's hard to put into words.

The fights are still fun, but run much more quickly. When we first switched, my players were constantly surprised that it was their turn again already. Because of the way bounded accuracy and xp work, you still can do large fights against what are, essentially, minions (and these fights can seriously challenge the players). The Concentration mechanic (you can only maintain one concentration spell at a time) prevents excessive pre-buffing, so you're never dealing with characters that have onion-like layers of spells. Martial characters can compete with their spellcasting compatriots. With Hit Dice (healing on a short rest), you can go longer each day, much as you could with healing surges. If you want to make your 5e game even more like 4e, they have optional rules for marking and second wind in the DMG.

My recommendation, if you can convince your group to try it, would be to start the PCs at third level. This gives them a much closer feel to 1st level 4e characters. My group tried starting at level 1, but afterwards we all felt it was a little boring without enough options, to the point where it almost turned them off 5e entirely. Starting at 3rd level fixed that. Also, I'd steer the players away from barbarian. It's a solid class in play, but my player who tried it felt it just didn't have enough interesting options for him.

I can't promise that you'll like it, but I certainly think it's worth a shot.
 
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dream66_

First Post
An important innovation from 4e is situational balancing. There is a high degree of niche protection in 5e, meaning that players are unlikely to step on each other's toes. 4e's roles were meant to do this, but ended up unnecessarily restricting design, leaving some obvious archetypes (like the bruiser) out of the game. Instead, the balance of 5e is built around the pillars. Each class is meant to have some way to participate in each of the three pillars of exploration, combat, and interaction. Some characters will shine a bit more in certain areas, but everyone should be able to do something. This was attempted in 4e's skill challenges, but most people found those to be unintuitive and not very useful. 5e handles it a lot better IMO.

While I agree with everything else you say, I simply cannot find any this to be true, there's simply nothing in 5e to suggest any kind of party building to me, I'm in 2 5e games and we basically have a stack of damage dealers and a cleric cuz someone had to heal in each party, and one of those clerics is really unhappy with his role. I tried to build my paladin to be a "defender" but I'm simply not sticky


5e is great, I'm really loving it, but in my opinion losing Defender, Striker, Leader, [Controller] is hands down the biggest mistake WOTC has ever made.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
While I agree with everything else you say, I simply cannot find any this to be true, there's simply nothing in 5e to suggest any kind of party building to me, I'm in 2 5e games and we basically have a stack of damage dealers and a cleric cuz someone had to heal in each party, and one of those clerics is really unhappy with his role. I tried to build my paladin to be a "defender" but I'm simply not sticky


5e is great, I'm really loving it, but in my opinion losing Defender, Striker, Leader, [Controller] is hands down the biggest mistake WOTC has ever made.

I think the disconnect here is that you are narrowly looking at combat.

Instead, it might help to look at the party as the Warrior, the Speaker, the Restorer and the Explorer.

And also to note that it isn't as binary as 4e -- most classes can be any of those things (though certain classes are better at certain elements than others, and some classes can't heal innately -- but healing potions are available there), so there's no strong need to designate these as absolutes. But the various class features point in different directions of emphasis. Like, if you go Thief, you'll be fine in a scrap, and if you don't dump Cha, you'll be fine in conversation, and pick up a few healing potions and everyone will say thanks in the thick of a fight, but a lot of your features are geared to getting you into places other character classes can't go -- making you a really dazzling Explorer. The party Sorcerer (for instance) might be able to catch up to you with a lot of effort, if you don't invest much into it, but you are effortlessly good at that in a way that the Sorc isn't. The Sorc, though, rocks the casbah in a fight in a way your thief needs to play catch-up to if they hope to match.

Combat's generally too short in 5e to reward much of a cornucopia of role diversity there (there's not enough turns for four unique roles to get a lot of mileage out of their combat powers). Instead of focusing on the different things a character might do in a combat encounter, the game focuses on different things a character might do in an adventuring day. If you're looking for a diversity of combat roles, you'll want to spend more time in combat than 5e does out of the box to ensure that everyone gets mileage out of their abilities.

In 5e, that would be as easy as pumping up monster HP (though by how much is one of those things that I can't divine yet), and even just looting the role abilities from 4e and slapping them on 5e characters as you see fit. :)
 


I’ve had difficulties in communicating with a particular 4E fan over this new edition, to the point that I am actually seeking other options with other groups due to his uncompromising attitude. The new edition merely represented a ‘return to 3.5’ and that was that for him. He also argued that the combat emphasis in 4E didn’t mean you couldn’t role-play - “you just role-play” - and refused to accept that the new edition actually put this element to the forefront again in celebration of the game’s seminal origins.

This is a shame, but I do think it is worth pointing out that if you look beyond the jargon you can play pretty much with the same options as you were presented with in 4E. Moreover, the 4E influences on the 5E design are as pronounced as any of the other previous editions.

For example, some people decry the return to the ‘Vancian’ casting. Yet, if you look at it properly - unlimited cantrips, ritual casting, extra themed powers for different casters, invocations for Warlocks, particular feats, short rests vs long rests and things like Arcane Recovery - the truth is that the D&D magic of today is a long, long way from the limitations of ‘fire and forget’ spell slots of the past. Moreover, most of the various powers from 4E classes have been integrated into spell lists while practically every Class now has magic or magic-like options available to them. The choice is there.

Similarly, should you want to categorise your classes into roles, there really isn’t anything stopping you and they have still managed to sneak in options like miniature-grid play and things like healing surges as options too. Miss the Warlord tactical leadership approach? Well, have a go at the new Fighter Battle Master manoeuvres and see how they work, or take on a Bard from the College of Valour perhaps, and take a Noble/Knight background. Starting HP too low, and you want more powers from the off? Well, gee, just start the characters off at a higher tier of play for heaven’s sake! Again, the choices are there.

It’s hard to answer the OPs question - and I do note that it was not done in any inflammatory way - because it’s a loaded question. Why should anybody need to sell 5E to a 4E player or group? It’s not as if 5E is out to conquer the world - people can and will play what they want and if WotC really wanted to persecute 4E players out of existence they’d have cancelled the DDI support a long time ago. The truth is that they aren’t trying to do that, just trying to create a new edition that can appeal to as wide a group of D&D players as is possible. I think they have been successful in that I like the new edition, but D&D players are such a disparate bunch these days it’s next to impossible to appeal to everybody. Anyway, for the sake of trying, these are the features of 5E I really like:

1) Arguably the broadest and most inclusive set of Race and Class options of any D&D Player’s Handbook ever, with clearly distinct roles and specialities.
2) Backgrounds - a simple mechanism to encourage roleplaying, whilst also expanding on character choices.
3) The low key skills and feats that provide enough proficiency options and colour for customisation, without overwhelming lists.
4) Magic for all. All characters have access to magical abilities if they choose, and there are now a number of viable options beyond simple Wizards’ ‘fire and forget’.
5) Integrated/implied settings (especially extra-planar) without impeding on groups that wish to design their own.
6) Simple, logical and elegant mechanics that don’t dominate the game table but still provide colour and strategic fun.
7) Inspiration and other mechanisms to integrate modern ‘narrative’ techniques, including a nod to Chaosium’s Sanity system.

What I don’t like about 5E, to date, is the lack of online support. Hopefully, that will change.
 
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Lidgar

Gongfarmer
5e is great, I'm really loving it, but in my opinion losing Defender, Striker, Leader, [Controller] is hands down the biggest mistake WOTC has ever made.

That's interesting. Abandoning this model was one of the major draws for my group to go with 5e. We felt too constrained by that model, and 5e seems to allow for folks running whatever they want to run more than any edition prior. To each their own!
 

Authweight

First Post
While I agree with everything else you say, I simply cannot find any this to be true, there's simply nothing in 5e to suggest any kind of party building to me, I'm in 2 5e games and we basically have a stack of damage dealers and a cleric cuz someone had to heal in each party, and one of those clerics is really unhappy with his role. I tried to build my paladin to be a "defender" but I'm simply not sticky


5e is great, I'm really loving it, but in my opinion losing Defender, Striker, Leader, [Controller] is hands down the biggest mistake WOTC has ever made.

Well, there's two separate things here. The first is that niche protection does not necessarily mean party building. It's more about how nobody is sneakier than the rogue, nobody hits harder than the fighter, and nobody is better at tracking enemies down through the wilderness than the ranger. The classes are actually good at what they're supposed to be good at, it isn't all just taken over by people with cool spells. It seems to me that 5e is based on the assumption that either the DM will deliberately provide good challenges that cater to different character strengths, or the players will play to their strengths and come up with strategies that take advantage of what they're good at (not at a combat level, but more on a larger strategic approach level). I agree that there really isn't much party-building strategy in 5e other than you probably want a healer.

The other thing you say here is that we lost a lot from 4e with the loss of roles. I personally felt that the roles in 4e had several major flaws in their implementation. I would like to see a 4e-style game that handles roles well, but I also don't think we really lost that much going away from roles, since they weren't done very well anyway.

My problems with 4e's roles is that they forced classes into roles they didn't thematically fit, and they never really embraced the roles enough to make them interesting.

A major problem in 4e is that there is no way to build a big, tough guy who focuses on hitting things. You can build a melee striker, but you're shockingly squishy, or you can build a defender who has to constantly think about controlling the battlefield. Nobody fills the role of, "I wanna hit some dudes." The barbarian, for instance, just doesn't make much sense as a striker. The barb is supposed to be tough, not squishy. There should have really been a bruiser role.

The controller role also had significant issues IMO. The controller classes got all their control in their powers instead of features, making it much less clear what their "thing" was supposed to be. At first it was area damage, but then the sorcerer came along and was good at that, and the controller became all about lockdown and forced movement. These abilities, however, are extremely annoying for DMs to deal with, they slow down fights in an already slow game, and they make fights against solos almost impossible to run without ridiculous cheesing from the DM to even things out.

The leader role was clearly defined in its ability to heal, but IMO healing should not have been made such a crucial part of the game. Especially with 4e's mechanics, I don't think there was a need for so many classes with healing as their thing. Plus, healing slowed down combat in an already slow game. I wish they would have beefed everyone up a little bit and made healing a cleric thing instead of a leader thing. Maybe let other classes have healing as an option in their powers, but not as a core feature of a full ~1/4th of all classes.

Strikers were defined by their ability to deal damage, but there was the issue that the role was divided into two fairly distinct groups. The first was melee strikers, the second was ranged strikers. The rogue was designed to easily flip between the two styles, and I think was the best designed striker by far. The ranger could be built to do both, but the natural build for most was to pick one or the other. The problem here is that the ranged striker and the melee striker had very different approaches and needs, but were built on the same class. This led to some of the problems I already talked about, like squishy barbarians.

IMO, the role system should have been heavily revised. If I was in charge of updating 4e, I would make the PC roles closer to the monster roles 4e had, with a skirmisher role, artillery role, bruiser role and defender role. Skirmishers would be characters like rogues and rangers, focused on mobility, utility, and damage at close and medium range. Artillery would be characters like sorcerers, wizards, and maybe a new archery oriented class that focus on doing big damage at range while being squishy. This would cover both area effect and single target damage. Bruisers would be tough melee characters built to both dish it and take it. The fighter would fit into this role, as well as the barbarian. The defender would be basically the same, although even tankier than in 4e. The leader role would be made something that is optional for a number of classes. I would keep the warlord, but make them a defender with a build that has some healing. The paladin would be a defender, and the cleric would be a bruiser, and both of them would have some healing options. I would allow many classes to build in a controller direction by choosing control oriented powers, although artillery and defender would really lend themselves to that style.

This is just how I would do it, not the only way or anything. But I think that the particular roles they went with in 4e caused them a lot of unnecessary trouble in their class design, and it led to a lot of confusion as classes had trouble aligning thematically with their supposed role.
 

Raith5

Adventurer
While I agree with everything else you say, I simply cannot find any this to be true, there's simply nothing in 5e to suggest any kind of party building to me, I'm in 2 5e games and we basically have a stack of damage dealers and a cleric cuz someone had to heal in each party, and one of those clerics is really unhappy with his role. I tried to build my paladin to be a "defender" but I'm simply not sticky


5e is great, I'm really loving it, but in my opinion losing Defender, Striker, Leader, [Controller] is hands down the biggest mistake WOTC has ever made.


I like there being mechanics rewarding playing certain types of roles (marking, quarrying healing word etc) but I am not sure I would welcome I return of cast in iron roles tied to classes. Even roles in 4e weakened as the edition went along.

But I do note the issue of cleric dependence in 5e (and that dependence requiring the cleric to forego the rest of the spells for other purposes). Some on these forums have talked about not needing a cleric in 5e and I just I have not seen it in my 5e game. Hit dice just dont go that far.
 

While I agree with everything else you say, I simply cannot find any this to be true, there's simply nothing in 5e to suggest any kind of party building to me, I'm in 2 5e games and we basically have a stack of damage dealers and a cleric cuz someone had to heal in each party, and one of those clerics is really unhappy with his role. I tried to build my paladin to be a "defender" but I'm simply not sticky


5e is great, I'm really loving it, but in my opinion losing Defender, Striker, Leader, [Controller] is hands down the biggest mistake WOTC has ever made.
Out of curiosity, is your group using the marking mechanic from the DMG?
 

But I do note the issue of cleric dependence in 5e (and that dependence requiring the cleric to forego the rest of the spells for other purposes). Some on these forums have talked about not needing a cleric in 5e and I just I have not seen it in my 5e game. Hit dice just dont go that far.

I don’t get the argument of Cleric dependence in 5e. Firstly, there are other Classes that can use healing (magic or otherwise). Secondly, the rules state that resting earns back HP based on the characters HD. Finally, options such as Healing Surges are discussed in the DMG. The rate of healing depends on the game you want to run.
 

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