Sell Me on Dungeon Crawl Classics For Long term Play, and NO Funnels

[Reynard]

Every once in a while I consider making an effort toward DCC. I like the aesthetic and I have played a few games at cons, but I am not sold on it as a long term campaign game (which is what I want). So, sell me.

Tell me about DCC modules and putting some together for a campaign? tell me about character advancement, both mechanical and diagetic (drink!). Tell me about running the game over the long term. Tell me about your experiences playing DCC over the long term.

Just don't tell me about Funnels. I don't care.

 

[Juxtapozbliss]

I’m curious if anyone will respond to this query.

 

[overgeeked]

First things first, what do you look for in a game to make it good for long-term play?

 

[Reynard]

First things first, what do you look for in a game to make it good for long-term play?

From a GM perspective, I need a concrete sense of how progression works in regards to the characters and the world. I want to know pretty solidly what 1st level, 4th level and 9th level characters are like before I even start. If there is too much randomness in progression, or progression is too shallow or too steep, it makes me think it isn't a good long term game. Same with extremes of rates of progression.

Tied to that is having robust and interesting widgets -- monsters, traps, tricks, etc-- at all levels of play. If there is too distinct a "sweet spot" from a GMs perspective, I don't consider it good for long term play.

Finally, the game itself should support lots of different kinds of adventures or other things the PCs can and will do. If that is too narrow, like a game built for combat and little else, or just dungeoncrawling, I don't consider it good for long term play.

 

[Nightfly]

I'm with you about funnels. I think they're a cool and interesting idea, but I hate that DCC has been reduced to "the funnel RPG" in people's minds. That's so unfair and inaccurate.

I'm not sure I've played enough DCC to answer this question well, but I'll try. One cool thing about DCC is that there are long-term consequences from any given adventure. Casters may need to spellburn themselves down to a nub to survive, or they might incur a terrible corruption. The concept that an adventuring life can leave permanent scars is foundational to DCC, but totally absent in most other fantasy RPGs. It adds a good bit of drama. In 5e, you either survive or (rarely) don't, but in DCC, it's a lot more complicated.

 

[overgeeked]

From a GM perspective, I need a concrete sense of how progression works in regards to the characters and the world. I want to know pretty solidly what 1st level, 4th level and 9th level characters are like before I even start. If there is too much randomness in progression, or progression is too shallow or too steep, it makes me think it isn't a good long term game. Same with extremes of rates of progression.

Good news is there's effectively zero randomness in progression for most characters*, beyond rolling for hit points. And you can even house rule that out if you want. So all you need to do is look at the races/classes in the book and their progression charts and you'll know what to expect.

_* The exception is, of course, wizards and elves. When they advance they gain new spells. If they encountered spells they can hang onto, captured spell book or scroll or some other means, then they can choose to learn that spell. Otherwise it's a random roll what spells they get. There's also mercurial magic, which wizards and elves roll for all their spells. This makes spells and magic far more interesting than most other magic systems.

I've found progression to be just right for long-term play. Not too steep and not too shallow.

But, like with early D&D, progression is mostly based on the Judge giving out magic items and the PCs earning diegetic rewards. Typically through Questing For It. Which is honestly phenomenal and should be stolen and ported into every RPG ever.

Tied to that is having robust and interesting widgets -- monsters, traps, tricks, etc-- at all levels of play. If there is too distinct a "sweet spot" from a GMs perspective, I don't consider it good for long term play.

The main book has 60 pages of monsters, which is about 80+ monsters. The stat blocks are a paragraph. Plus they give, typically, several paragraphs of description for each. Though some are shorter. The selection of monsters includes several broad categories like dragons, demons, ghosts, and slimes. Each of these is unique in that you pick or roll from charts. The dragons, for example, have at least 293 million unique combinations. And that's with rounding down and skipping a few things. Converting monsters from most D&D editions is a snap.

Dungeon Denizens, the dedicated monster book, has over 500 monsters. It was funded on Kickstarter and is nearing delivery. It should be generally available soon. Though there are also too many zines and free resources to count.

The DCC modules are all high quality, almost without exception. Each has unique monsters, puzzles, and traps you can use regardless of running that module or not. Most modules are short and cost $10-15 in print. And no, despite the name, not all the modules are dungeoncrawls. Most can be run in a few sessions of play or stripped for parts. Converting modules from most D&D editions is a snap.

Goodman Games recently crowdfunded Grimtooth's Old-School Traps for both 5E and DCC. The PDFs were just delivered to backers so the books should be generally available soon. Converting traps from most D&D editions is a snap.

Finally, the game itself should support lots of different kinds of adventures or other things the PCs can and will do. If that is too narrow, like a game built for combat and little else, or just dungeoncrawling, I don't consider it good for long term play.

Despite the name, Dungeon Crawl Classics RPG can do all the same stuff any fantasy RPG can do.

It does have a distinctly old-school feel. Mechanically and fictionally. The game was designed around Appendix N fiction and replicating that style of action-adventure. So, just like D&D, most of the rules are about combat. But, just like D&D, you can do anything you want with the system. Two of the licensed settings are Vance's Dying Earth and Leiber's Lankhmar.

DCC RPG explicitly trusts the Judge to run the game and the players should trust the Judge. If the players want courtly intrigue, awesome, run it. If the players want wilderness exploration, awesome, run it. If the players want cozy shopkeepers, awesome, run it. But it doesn't have mountains of subsystems covering everything. It has the rules it needs to be a recognizable d20 fantasy game then gets out of the Judge's way, like it should. This is intentional. Though there are plenty of fan-made resources available free if you feel you absolutely have to have mechanics for some of these things.

You can Quest For It to gain new skills, new allies, magic spells, magic items, castles, keeps, etc. Basically, all the customization questions people typically have come down to Quest For It. You as the Judge put whatever reward the PC wants on the far side of a compelling quest and set them loose. Anyone with even a basic sense of story and conflict should be set.

Most of the question people have about the game come down to either "The Judge is in charge, they decide" or "Quest For It."

Post #3 of this thread has a gathering of resources if you're interested.

 

[Reynard]

Good news is there's effectively zero randomness in progression for most characters*, beyond rolling for hit points. And you can even house rule that out if you want. So all you need to do is look at the races/classes in the book and their progression charts and you'll know what to expect.

_* The exception is, of course, wizards and elves. When they advance they gain new spells. If they encountered spells they can hang onto, captured spell book or scroll or some other means, then they can choose to learn that spell. Otherwise it's a random roll what spells they get. There's also mercurial magic, which wizards and elves roll for all their spells. This makes spells and magic far more interesting than most other magic systems.

I've found progression to be just right for long-term play. Not too steep and not too shallow.

But, like with early D&D, progression is mostly based on the Judge giving out magic items and the PCs earning diegetic rewards. Typically through Questing For It. Which is honestly phenomenal and should be stolen and ported into every RPG ever.

The main book has 60 pages of monsters, which is about 80+ monsters. The stat blocks are a paragraph. Plus they give, typically, several paragraphs of description for each. Though some are shorter. The selection of monsters includes several broad categories like dragons, demons, ghosts, and slimes. Each of these is unique in that you pick or roll from charts. The dragons, for example, have at least 293 million unique combinations. And that's with rounding down and skipping a few things. Converting monsters from most D&D editions is a snap.

Dungeon Denizens, the dedicated monster book, has over 500 monsters. It was funded on Kickstarter and is nearing delivery. It should be generally available soon. Though there are also too many zines and free resources to count.

The DCC modules are all high quality, almost without exception. Each has unique monsters, puzzles, and traps you can use regardless of running that module or not. Most modules are short and cost $10-15 in print. And no, despite the name, not all the modules are dungeoncrawls. Most can be run in a few sessions of play or stripped for parts. Converting modules from most D&D editions is a snap.

Goodman Games recently crowdfunded Grimtooth's Old-School Traps for both 5E and DCC. The PDFs were just delivered to backers so the books should be generally available soon. Converting traps from most D&D editions is a snap.

Despite the name, Dungeon Crawl Classics RPG can do all the same stuff any fantasy RPG can do.

It does have a distinctly old-school feel. Mechanically and fictionally. The game was designed around Appendix N fiction and replicating that style of action-adventure. So, just like D&D, most of the rules are about combat. But, just like D&D, you can do anything you want with the system. Two of the licensed settings are Vance's Dying Earth and Leiber's Lankhmar.

DCC RPG explicitly trusts the Judge to run the game and the players should trust the Judge. If the players want courtly intrigue, awesome, run it. If the players want wilderness exploration, awesome, run it. If the players want cozy shopkeepers, awesome, run it. But it doesn't have mountains of subsystems covering everything. It has the rules it needs to be a recognizable d20 fantasy game then gets out of the Judge's way, like it should. This is intentional. Though there are plenty of fan-made resources available free if you feel you absolutely have to have mechanics for some of these things.

You can Quest For It to gain new skills, new allies, magic spells, magic items, castles, keeps, etc. Basically, all the customization questions people typically have come down to Quest For It. You as the Judge put whatever reward the PC wants on the far side of a compelling quest and set them loose. Anyone with even a basic sense of story and conflict should be set.

Most of the question people have about the game come down to either "The Judge is in charge, they decide" or "Quest For It."

Post #3 of this thread has a gathering of resources if you're interested.

Thank you for the detailed reply.

 

[payn]

From a GM perspective, I need a concrete sense of how progression works in regards to the characters and the world. I want to know pretty solidly what 1st level, 4th level and 9th level characters are like before I even start. If there is too much randomness in progression, or progression is too shallow or too steep, it makes me think it isn't a good long term game. Same with extremes of rates of progression.

Tied to that is having robust and interesting widgets -- monsters, traps, tricks, etc-- at all levels of play. If there is too distinct a "sweet spot" from a GMs perspective, I don't consider it good for long term play.

Finally, the game itself should support lots of different kinds of adventures or other things the PCs can and will do. If that is too narrow, like a game built for combat and little else, or just dungeoncrawling, I don't consider it good for long term play.

I dont think DCC is good for long term play, but wanted to comment on the "sweet spot". DCC is very much a skill play focused system. Meaning (player) be smart or (Character) be dead. It plays exactly like that at all levels. So, from the perspective of a sweet spot, you dont have to worry. If you like some continuity you likely wont have it as you will probably be on your 12th PC by the time you hit 12th level.

That said, I have had an absolute blast with DCC modules. I find them to be weird, funny, and challenging. Though, not really any connection for a metaplot campaign. So, if you are fine piecing completely unrelated adventures together, then DCC might work for you long term.

 

[Parmandur]

I don't have experience beyond funnels, but I have read the book: in terms of level expectations, it goes from0-10, with what a character can do reflecting a1E-3E PC of twice that Level (so a Level 5 Warrior is a Level 10 AD&D Fighter).

XP is "Encounter-based," not combat based: if PC engage in some activity, they all get 1-4 XP at DM discretion on how cool the interaction was. Get past a trap? 1-4 XP. Talk to a friendly Sphinx? 1-4 XP. Negotiate with a hag? 1-4 XP. Kill a bunch of Goblins? 1-4 XP.

As such, fun roleplaying is encouraged by the XP system more than combat, and modules are designed for every keyed location to give 1-4 XP.

 

[Simlasa]

I played in a long-term campaign of DCC. It went on for over a year and it was a whole lot of fun! It really only ended because the GM wanted to step down for a while and let someone else run games.
We did start with a Funnel (which I love) but from there the GM strung together a whole slew of DCC and non-DCC modules, as well as some stuff of his own creation. Usually these were presented as existing locations where there was some item/person/information we needed to locate. He did a great job of tying it all together... yet it never felt linear/railroady. Like any investigative adventure we hit snags, went after red-herrings, and occasionally bit off more than we could kill.

My PC (a wizard) was eventually one of the highest level characters (5th level). She was getting pretty damn powerful and truncated several encounters on her first turn. When we visited (I think) White Plume Mountain she ended the mission halfway through with a single spell (which was also nearly caused a TPK, because DCC magic is fun that way).
I was thinking she might be getting TOO powerful and was planning to retire her somehow... but then she was taken out by a dragon (DCC dragons are crazy dangerous to be on the wrong side of!). It was great!

It's definitely a game that avoids 'plot armor' and can lead to sudden death, but because of that it felt all that much more satisfying to make it through and succeed at stuff.
Short term play can be great, but there are loads of stuff in DCC that doesn't really come into the spotlight until you've been playing for a while, such as relationships with Patrons (I think any class can find one) and all the possibilities contained in the mantra 'Quest For It'.