I came within inches of playing a War Cleric 1 / Wizard X for our current campaign. But, I finally decided that I did not want to wait many gaming sessions each time, just to get the higher level wizard spells. Such a PC has a few more hit points, better AC, heal spells (and other great first level cleric spells), and the best weapons. Now that I am playing the wizard and doing so little damage with cantrips, I kind of wish that I would have gone the other route.
D&D 5E Sell me on Wizards
- Thread starter raleel
- Start date
I came within inches of playing a War Cleric 1 / Wizard X for our current campaign. But, I finally decided that I did not want to wait many gaming sessions each time, just to get the higher level wizard spells. Such a PC has a few more hit points, better AC, heal spells (and other great first level cleric spells), and the best weapons. Now that I am playing the wizard and doing so little damage with cantrips, I kind of wish that I would have gone the other route.
A lot of folks here seem overly focused on being the star of combat. Wizards are a utility class, with a side order of mook destruction. If that's not your thing, you won't enjoy playing a wizard, any more than a player who finds combat boring would enjoy playing a fighter, or a player who hates being in a support role would enjoy playing a cleric.
Now that we've got that out of the way:
First of all, don't make the mistake of thinking of cantrips as fallbacks for when you run out of "real" spells. At low- to mid-levels, cantrips are your "real" spells; leveled spells are your big guns. And don't get stuck on dealing damage. Remember: Utility class. Minor illusion is incredibly useful as an all-purpose distraction. Get the ogre to waste one of his PC-crushing swings on an illusion, and the fighter will love you forever. Draw a guard out of position chasing a fake rogue so the real rogue can slip past. Mage hand can do all kinds of useful tricks, swiping small objects, triggering traps, fetching treasure from locations you can't easily reach. Those are probably the two best cantrips; prestidigitation and light are good too.
Don't neglect the utility value of attack cantrips, either. Unless your DM is extra picky about requiring a creature as a target, acid splash is a great utility spell. Got a locked door you need to open quietly, but the rogue botched the Thieves' Tools check? Pour acid into it and eat the mechanism away. Just killed a bugbear sentry and now you have a seven-foot corpse to hide? Reduce it to pitted bones and put them in a sack. While fire bolt is not quite as versatile, it's still got plenty of out-of-combat use. Every good adventurer knows the importance of setting things on fire.
As you advance, your leveled spells gain in importance. I have found that there are two spells on my spell list that see more use than anything else: Fireball and dimension door. Fireball is awesome mook destruction--just phenomenal at taking out the trash while the other PCs focus on the big boss. (And if you can arrange to clip the big boss with it while you're blowing up mooks, he'll certainly feel the sting.) Dimension door takes a 4th-level slot, which is painful, but it's worth every bit of it. Its best use IME is to let you act as a chariot; when the fighter or the rogue really, really needs to get to an enemy who's way out of reach (a spellcaster, a flying enemy, et cetera), just grab her by the shoulder and dimension door over there. You can also use it as an escape hatch for yourself and one other person if a fight starts to go badly, or to get past a barrier of some kind.
Other excellent leveled spells: Levitate, shield, invisibility, suggestion,, counterspell. I routinely make my DM cry by counterspelling his spell-slinging villains. If you're an abjurer (which gives you proficiency on your counterspell checks), you have no excuse to let an enemy caster ever get a big spell off.
(As for comparing the wizard to the cleric as a utility class: Sure, clerics have a larger list of spells available to prepare. Hardly any of them are utility spells, however, and those they do have are nowhere near as versatile as what the wizard gets. When you need to tighten a screw, which is better: The guy with seven different hammers, or the guy with one screwdriver?)
Now that we've got that out of the way:
First of all, don't make the mistake of thinking of cantrips as fallbacks for when you run out of "real" spells. At low- to mid-levels, cantrips are your "real" spells; leveled spells are your big guns. And don't get stuck on dealing damage. Remember: Utility class. Minor illusion is incredibly useful as an all-purpose distraction. Get the ogre to waste one of his PC-crushing swings on an illusion, and the fighter will love you forever. Draw a guard out of position chasing a fake rogue so the real rogue can slip past. Mage hand can do all kinds of useful tricks, swiping small objects, triggering traps, fetching treasure from locations you can't easily reach. Those are probably the two best cantrips; prestidigitation and light are good too.
Don't neglect the utility value of attack cantrips, either. Unless your DM is extra picky about requiring a creature as a target, acid splash is a great utility spell. Got a locked door you need to open quietly, but the rogue botched the Thieves' Tools check? Pour acid into it and eat the mechanism away. Just killed a bugbear sentry and now you have a seven-foot corpse to hide? Reduce it to pitted bones and put them in a sack. While fire bolt is not quite as versatile, it's still got plenty of out-of-combat use. Every good adventurer knows the importance of setting things on fire.
As you advance, your leveled spells gain in importance. I have found that there are two spells on my spell list that see more use than anything else: Fireball and dimension door. Fireball is awesome mook destruction--just phenomenal at taking out the trash while the other PCs focus on the big boss. (And if you can arrange to clip the big boss with it while you're blowing up mooks, he'll certainly feel the sting.) Dimension door takes a 4th-level slot, which is painful, but it's worth every bit of it. Its best use IME is to let you act as a chariot; when the fighter or the rogue really, really needs to get to an enemy who's way out of reach (a spellcaster, a flying enemy, et cetera), just grab her by the shoulder and dimension door over there. You can also use it as an escape hatch for yourself and one other person if a fight starts to go badly, or to get past a barrier of some kind.
Other excellent leveled spells: Levitate, shield, invisibility, suggestion,, counterspell. I routinely make my DM cry by counterspelling his spell-slinging villains. If you're an abjurer (which gives you proficiency on your counterspell checks), you have no excuse to let an enemy caster ever get a big spell off.
(As for comparing the wizard to the cleric as a utility class: Sure, clerics have a larger list of spells available to prepare. Hardly any of them are utility spells, however, and those they do have are nowhere near as versatile as what the wizard gets. When you need to tighten a screw, which is better: The guy with seven different hammers, or the guy with one screwdriver?)
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I've played several 5e wizards from 1st level through 5th level. I got no complaints about the class in particular. It'd be nice if there were more spellbooks and scribable scrolls included among treasure, but that's not a class issue, it's a treasure issue. 
I've also played 5e sorceror (dragon) and warlock (infernal). The difference between them is interesting. Warlocks are definitely more distinguishable than sorcerors, but even sorcerors play differently, I find.
Overall I am in agreement with several posts already made though; wizards seem designed to rely on cantrips, with occasional 'bursts' of power from leveled spells. They burn 'lower' than non-arcane classes by default, but they get a lot more bang for their buck when expending their finite resource of spell slots.
That said, I find cantrips, while averaging less damage overall than equivalently leveled attacks, to be quite acceptable contributions for most fights. Firebolt does a respectable damage dice, and Ray of Frost and Shocking Grasp have tactically usefull riders that enhance their utility.
I would say my experience as a wizard points to the importance of watching for, and recognizing, key points in a conflict in which a powerful effect can turn the tide significantly. An effective 5e wizard will probably hang back, plinking with cantrips, watching for that moment when enemies bunch up...or when he sees someone with a low Will defense bonus...or when there's a bottleneck on the battlefield that an area control spell can plug up.
And then BLAMMO.
You don't get the spotlight all the time as a wizard, but when you shine, you shine so bright...
I've also played 5e sorceror (dragon) and warlock (infernal). The difference between them is interesting. Warlocks are definitely more distinguishable than sorcerors, but even sorcerors play differently, I find.
Overall I am in agreement with several posts already made though; wizards seem designed to rely on cantrips, with occasional 'bursts' of power from leveled spells. They burn 'lower' than non-arcane classes by default, but they get a lot more bang for their buck when expending their finite resource of spell slots.
That said, I find cantrips, while averaging less damage overall than equivalently leveled attacks, to be quite acceptable contributions for most fights. Firebolt does a respectable damage dice, and Ray of Frost and Shocking Grasp have tactically usefull riders that enhance their utility.
I would say my experience as a wizard points to the importance of watching for, and recognizing, key points in a conflict in which a powerful effect can turn the tide significantly. An effective 5e wizard will probably hang back, plinking with cantrips, watching for that moment when enemies bunch up...or when he sees someone with a low Will defense bonus...or when there's a bottleneck on the battlefield that an area control spell can plug up.
And then BLAMMO.
You don't get the spotlight all the time as a wizard, but when you shine, you shine so bright...
This x1000. Wizard spells are very situational. If you just start firing blindly, you'll burn up your spell slots and end up with very little for your trouble. It's all about waiting for the opportune moment, and seizing it when it comes.
It's not about being the star of combat. Nobody ever said that. It's about being at least a little bit competent in combat more than one encounter in three.
When you pull out the big guns, they should actually do something above and beyond what other PCs are doing with melee attacks.
Magic Missile. Yes, I hit automatically. But the Monk with his Flurry of Blows averages more damage. His ability refreshes with a short rest, my ability refreshes with a long rest (and yes, I know that Flurry is not a ranged attack).
Yes, but that is a bit of an issue. Wizards do not get all of the spells like Clerics, and do not get decent At Will attacks like anyone else.
For my wizard PC, I took 1st level spells: Detect Magic, Disguise Self, Find Familiar, Fog Cloud, Identify, Mage Armor, Shield, and Witch Bolt (didn't read it carefully) and 2nd level spells: Suggestion and Web by third level.
With 6 spells at level 3, that's typically Mage Armor and Shield as autospells, one or both of the second level spells, and if I throw Detect Magic in the list, then there are only 1 or 2 spells per day remaining. Making one of them offensive (at this point, I have more offensive spell options, these are just the ones I selected) still squeezes the PC.
Do you try to protect with Fog Cloud? Take a second offensive spell? Forget about Identify, that has to wait. Disguise Self is great, but I cannot take it most days.
The point is, the PC cannot do much in the way of utility since he is forced to do at least a little offense and defense and not taking the highest level spells seems like a bit of a waste.
Abjurers only get this ability starting at level 10. So, level 5 through 9, the PC is using up one of his few higher level slots to maybe, and maybe not, counter a 4th or higher level spell.
Btw, Shield is stupid. It's a spell more for Bards, Arcane Tricksters, and Eldritch Knights than for Wizards. Resource-wise, it's extremely expensive for a Wizard. And even with that in mind, most PC Wizards have to use up a spells known per day to take it because without it, being a wizard sucks even more. It's like Mage Armor. A more or less have to take spell designed to eat up spells per day and spell slot resources.
It's all great and well to talk about the wonderful things that wizards can do at higher levels, but the wizard actually has to survive to get to those levels (in most campaigns), and the utility you talk about can be few and far between because the wizard doesn't actually have the spell he needs today prepared.
While I don't disagree with the concept, it is somewhat important for every class to have their moment in the sun in all the aspects of the game. This is why we have clerics and fighters the way they are now - specifically because we didn't like heal bots and fighters getting outshined by wizards
Also, could you define "utility" in your view? It gets tossed around a lot and it tends to be "I handle the edge cases", which... well... is that really a role?
I don't disagree, particularly on Minor Illusion. The ability to summon a thing that can block line of sight and requires an intelligence based investigation is quite strong. Intelligence tends to be a low stat on monsters, so it's going to hit them particularly hard.
Sure. I'm particularly fond of the "spread oil out with an unseen servant and fire bolt it" trick. It should be noted that they scale automatically, not requiring bigger slots.
I disagree with you on acid splash - the GM isn't "not being extra picky" there, he's being quite lenient in allowing it to hit objects. The spell specifically calls out creatures. Sure, he might allow it. Heck, as a regular GM I probably would allow it. But that's not RAW by any stretch of the imagination.
good. this is the sort of thing that I would like to see. I wouldn't mind it being focused at lower levels, but this is actually quite good still. It gives me hope that it is not bad, just requires a pretty high level of thought. That's ok with me.
I think you are correct that they have more versatility potentially, but wizards DO have to have those spells available. Without scrolls and money in the treasure, the wizard is going to lag behind seriously. If you play once a week, get a scroll once a week, and level every 2 weeks, you are JUST matching the cleric's spell selection. Granted, yours may be more versatile and hit a million edge cases, but he does have that whole healing thing that you are missing entirely.
It is highly DM dependent at that point, and that never feels very good to a player. You have to have a high level of trust with your DM, and that is not always available, and probably not the best game design.
I suppose at this point it is good to remind DMs that your wizard player is very dependent on scrolls/ability to add spells from you. Make sure that he's getting the most bang for his buck - he's paying for his squishiness with versatility, so let him have some.
I've played several 5e wizards from 1st level through 5th level. I got no complaints about the class in particular. It'd be nice if there were more spellbooks and scribable scrolls included among treasure, but that's not a class issue, it's a treasure issue.
I've also played 5e sorceror (dragon) and warlock (infernal). The difference between them is interesting. Warlocks are definitely more distinguishable than sorcerors, but even sorcerors play differently, I find.
Overall I am in agreement with several posts already made though; wizards seem designed to rely on cantrips, with occasional 'bursts' of power from leveled spells. They burn 'lower' than non-arcane classes by default, but they get a lot more bang for their buck when expending their finite resource of spell slots.
That said, I find cantrips, while averaging less damage overall than equivalently leveled attacks, to be quite acceptable contributions for most fights. Firebolt does a respectable damage dice, and Ray of Frost and Shocking Grasp have tactically usefull riders that enhance their utility.
I would say my experience as a wizard points to the importance of watching for, and recognizing, key points in a conflict in which a powerful effect can turn the tide significantly. An effective 5e wizard will probably hang back, plinking with cantrips, watching for that moment when enemies bunch up...or when he sees someone with a low Will defense bonus...or when there's a bottleneck on the battlefield that an area control spell can plug up.
And then BLAMMO.
You don't get the spotlight all the time as a wizard, but when you shine, you shine so bright...
thanks for this. This kind of is the gist I'm getting from it.
It also means that the DM probably needs to make sure that the wizard has the information he needs to pick spells well. Memorizing hold person when the big bads are mostly monsters is going to make him feel like he wasted his time.
I wouldn't know about high levels. Only gotten to 5th. Haven't had any trouble surviving yet though.
I do take and cast mage armor every day. 1 spell slot for +3 AC is worth it. I actually disagree with you on Shield. It can feel expensive at 1st level (and you can always wait to take it until 2nd if you like), but wizards are fragile enough that having a big blocking move is a good idea. It's a spell you never want to need, but if you do need it, you need it badly enough to justify the opportunity cost.
I'm finding it hard to connect to your complaints, Karinsdad...your experience and mine seem so distant. I've been quite happy with my cantrips. And when I take a moment for a burning hands, or to snipe with magic missile, or plop a Grease down in a narrow corridor, the results have been satisfying.
It may be a difference of expectations between us? I'm not sure.
I'm sorry you're not enjoying it though.
I do take and cast mage armor every day. 1 spell slot for +3 AC is worth it. I actually disagree with you on Shield. It can feel expensive at 1st level (and you can always wait to take it until 2nd if you like), but wizards are fragile enough that having a big blocking move is a good idea. It's a spell you never want to need, but if you do need it, you need it badly enough to justify the opportunity cost.
I'm finding it hard to connect to your complaints, Karinsdad...your experience and mine seem so distant. I've been quite happy with my cantrips. And when I take a moment for a burning hands, or to snipe with magic missile, or plop a Grease down in a narrow corridor, the results have been satisfying.
It may be a difference of expectations between us? I'm not sure.
I'm sorry you're not enjoying it though.
UngeheuerLich
Legend
At level 1, some things are not wise. A pure wizard at the frontline? No good Idea. Up to level 3 you should stick with your stereotypical role. It may not be to your liking, but I believe it is not so bad. A wizard at the lowest level should feel like a wizard. Customization comes later. Ecperienced groups should start at level 3 I guess. There you can be the wizard you want. Frontline, backline etc. Multiclassing comes in handy, as does cleverly distributed stats.
If you like to be a frontliner, put your higher scores in dexterity and constitution. Or be a dwarf. Or a variant human. Or be a bard or cleric or whatever you like. The wizard is in no bad shape at all. A sleep spell e.g. is all you need to make your comerades stare at you in awe. Does not really matter what else you do that day.
I wouldn't know about high levels. Only gotten to 5th. Haven't had any trouble surviving yet though.
I do take and cast mage armor every day. 1 spell slot for +3 AC is worth it. I actually disagree with you on Shield. It can feel expensive at 1st level (and you can always wait to take it until 2nd if you like), but wizards are fragile enough that having a big blocking move is a good idea. It's a spell you never want to need, but if you do need it, you need it badly enough to justify the opportunity cost.
I'm finding it hard to connect to your complaints, Karinsdad...your experience and mine seem so distant. I've been quite happy with my cantrips. And when I take a moment for a burning hands, or to snipe with magic missile, or plop a Grease down in a narrow corridor, the results have been satisfying.
It may be a difference of expectations between us? I'm not sure.
I'm sorry you're not enjoying it though.
No worries.
I'm having a great time with the game. I just happen to roll lousy dice a lot and the DM rolls good saves a lot. So a lot of my spells fizzle. Using multiple spells for Mage Armor and Shield and not even being anywhere near the rest of the party AC-wise seems like a waste as well. So yeah, when one is not happy with the cantrips and the defensive spells, that's the majority of the combat rounds.
I've saved the party's bacon twice with Fog Cloud and once with Web, so it's all good. It's just so darn few and far between. And of course, the first casualty of any of my plans is the plan itself. At least a dozen times so far, I'm all set to cast my cool spell and some other PC gets in the way or changes the scenario enough that it is no longer a good idea (even out of combat).
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