D&D 5E Sell/unsell me on Magic Resistance and Legendary Resistance

[I'm A Banana]

I'm a player in a Dragonlance game who specializes on save-or-suck magic.

This is a campaign where the major humanoid antagonists (draconians) all have advantage on saves vs. magic, and the major monstrous antagonists (dragons) have legendary resistance. It's come up a LOT. Level 8 now, so mid-level.

None of my most powerful spells are all that effective against these creatures. Polymorph? Banishment? Confusion? Hypnotic Pattern? Everyone makes their saves.

The biggest effect is mostly to highlight how my character could maybe use a bit of diversity, which is probably a good effect.

In-combat, it leaves me scrambling around a bit for other actions I can perform, but I've usually got something in my bag of tricks I can do.

As a player, it doesn't make me feel screwed, it makes me feel like I want to find ways around this. And I do (I'm a wild sorcerer, so for magic resistant enemies, heighten spell has been golden).

 

[CapnZapp]

Huh. From the thread title I expected you to go in the other direction--observing that Magic Resistance in 5E is incredibly weak and near-pointless compared to AD&D % Magic Resistance.

No, I came from the direction where I felt Magic Resistance funnels casters into using damage spells.

More than they already do.

With save or suck spells already requiring concentration, giving new saves each round, and so on, I fear magic resistance might be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

The tendency of my players is already to abandon hold person like spells, and instead deal damage. That at least offers a decent chance of success (with half damage on a save being better than nothing).

Also dealing damage directly stacks with the fighters' efforts. It means everybody pulls in the same direction.

---

So, you see, this has nothing to do with AD&D. This is not about emulating the mechanics of the past.

What I want is to give demons & co some kind of magic resistance that doesn't simply mean casters give up on save or suck spells.

 

[CapnZapp]

And I only have one BBEG for them to fight. They're not going to get to do their cool stuff if the wizard walks in the room and neuters the BBEGs brain turn 1.

I'm not suggesting we drop resistance altogether.

I feel like your comments aren't directed at me... but by all means, let the rant out

To everyone: thank you

 

[dmnqwk]

What a lot of DMs need to remember, when it comes to running a session, is that your only goal is for everybody to have fun.

Think of it like running a children's birthday party.
You are in control of a dozen or so people who rely on you to entertain them for a few hours.
You set up some balloons, party games, music, entertainment, food, drink and don't demand every child does everything.
You guide them through the party by springing games on them at certain times; you let them eat (maybe you leave the food out to nibble on instead) and when it comes time to end the party? Party Bags!

The DM is just like the parent running the party - your job is to control the situation so everybody is safe and has fun, it's not to demand everybody does exactly what you want them to, or for them to have fun in the way you desire.

If you personally don't like Magic Resistance, you are best off not using it - provided you are avoiding it to make the game more fun for your players.
I think it's a good addition, rather than the old spell resistance, because a lot more spells in 5th have substituted saving throws for attack rolls. You also find more monster resistant to b/s/p damage than you used to find, so it's swings and roundabouts for balance.

As for legendary resistance, it's there to ensure your story flows properly - they don't want the old boredom of "I cast finger of death on the super awesome dragon. He rolled a 1? Oops he's dead." But again, if you are scared you will metagame for the wrong reasons (the right ones being to ensure more people have fun) then you shouldn't use it, no.

 

[bgbarcus]

As can be seen, the change in probability is dependent on the initial success chance and is not constant.

That's why I suggested using anydice.com to model the rolls. That varying effect does up nicely when comparing the curves of normal vs. advantage rolls. I was too lazy to write it all out.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

No, I came from the direction where I felt Magic Resistance funnels casters into using damage spells.

More than they already do.

With save or suck spells already requiring concentration, giving new saves each round, and so on, I fear magic resistance might be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

The tendency of my players is already to abandon hold person like spells, and instead deal damage. That at least offers a decent chance of success (with half damage on a save being better than nothing).

Also dealing damage directly stacks with the fighters' efforts. It means everybody pulls in the same direction.

---

So, you see, this has nothing to do with AD&D. This is not about emulating the mechanics of the past.

What I want is to give demons & co some kind of magic resistance that doesn't simply mean casters give up on save or suck spells.

That's more about Legendary Resistance than Magic Resistance. Magic Resistance can be countered by targeting weak saves. A Balor gets to save against Evard's Black Tentacles at +2, but with advantage!!! Feh. That Balor is still going to get eaten by otherworldly tentacles 64% of the time against DC 19; even more often (about 80%) if there's a Wild Sorcerer on the PC team. Against Wisdom saves like True Polymorph he's got +9, giving him only about a 20% chance to fail (45% if you can force disadvantage via metamagic/Bestow Curse/etc. first)--but the payoff for making him fail is higher because now you own him if you planned it right. E.g. you can turn him into a Mummy Lord, Feeblemind him, and then use Control Undead to take permanent possession before healing the Feeblemind. 20% chance of success is about right for that option--it's still very much worth trying, because balors don't have Legendary Resistance.

So it looks to me like it's Legendary Resistance which needs tweaking.

One interesting way to do this would be to say that Legendary Resistance is a reaction, used consciously by the monster. Therefore, you can bait the monster into making an opportunity attack and then hit it with the spell, or have multiple spellcasters per turn all hitting it simultaneously--and furthermore, Legendary Resistance would not be usable while incapacitated (e.g. by Tasha's Hideous Laughter). Also, Legendary Resistance would not work while surprised, and would not stack with Counterspelling or Shield.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Have you experienced high level play? What did your players think of it?

The party is up to level 15, but they've already fought a lich and a titan and at least half a dozen adult dragons. I don't know if that counts as "high level" for you.

As it's come up, nobody really notices. I don't narrate a Legendary save any differently from just succeeding on the saving throw (I mean, I've tried to narrate it differently, but it's hard to conceptualize the difference and put that into words). Everyone at the table knows that such a mechanic exists, and they can guess when it might come into play since the monster will be taking Legendary actions, but they don't try save-or-die effects against legendary enemies at all.

When you cast a spell that allows a save to negate, you have to prepare for the likelihood that they'll make the save. They know that legendary monsters have good saves, so they're not going to risk everything on landing one of those spells, and they usually just resort to direct damage instead. Most of the legendary monsters I've run have been killed while they still had Legendary Resistance available.

Should Magic Resistance be limited to the initial save only?

Magic Resistance is significantly underwhelming in 5E, because the monster will probably still fail its save anyway. A golem has a -1 bonus to Dex saves, and rolling twice, it still needs a 20 in order to dodge a fireball. For contrast, if they try to charm something with good Wisdom, then the monster was probably going to make that save anyway and the player probably isn't going to use the spell in that case.

It does make the difference, very occasionally, but not in a reliable manner. Mostly it doesn't matter, because they were going to fail anyway and still end up failing.

 

[dave2008]

One interesting way to do this would be to say that Legendary Resistance is a reaction, used consciously by the monster. Therefore, you can bait the monster into making an opportunity attack and then hit it with the spell, or have multiple spellcasters per turn all hitting it simultaneously--and furthermore, Legendary Resistance would not be usable while incapacitated (e.g. by Tasha's Hideous Laughter). Also, Legendary Resistance would not work while surprised, and would not stack with Counterspelling or Shield.

That is what I have been thinking as well. Nerf Legendary Resistance some (spend a reaction or legendary action maybe) and buff Magic Resistance some (disadvantage on magic attacks that target the creature maybe)

 

[Shiroiken]

I dont view these as abilities that monsters are aware of and use tactically. They are DM resources, to ensure an exciting fight. This might actually mean NOT using them even if available if it's more fun that way.

I suppose it depends on how you view being a DM. I consider all monster and NPC abilities the way a player would view their PC's abilities. The only difference is I always take the creature's Intelligence into account, because that's part of my role as DM. Of course, I'm less interested in making things "fun" as I am making things challenging (within the context of being a neutral referee).

 

[Ancalagon]

To me it's part of the balancing of D&D - the spellcasters have awesome power, but they don't always work great vs *every* monster. Step in magic resistance (and it was *way* worse in 2nd ed btw). Vs some well, the warriors of the party are the one who are going to have to kill it.

When this happens, the casters should:
1: assist the warriors by buffing, hindering the monster with obstacles, summoning monsters etc
2: Use their spells to get rid of allies the big bad monster might have with it
3: contemplate humility.