D&D 5E (2014) Sell/unsell me on Magic Resistance and Legendary Resistance

[CapnZapp]

The thing I hate most about Legendary Resistance is that it's so gimmicky and metagamey. Against legendary resistance, for example, it matters hugely whether a given spell is resisted via saving throw or ability check (Maze). Otto's Irresistible Dance becomes terrific because there is no initial saving throw, Wall of Force is notable for granting no save, etc.

I understand that Legendary Resistance is intended to cancel out more than just spells: it's supposed to cancel out Battlemaster maneuvers, Stunning Strike, etc. But I can't help wondering whether most monsters wouldn't be better-served by what is essentially a built-in high-level Counterspell ability instead. What if dragons/krakens/vampires/etc., instead of having Legendary Resistance, had the ability to use their reaction against any spell that affects them to attempt to instantly negate that spell, a la 5E Counterspell/Dispel Magic (depending on whether or not it's an instantaneous effect) and similar to AD&D's MR%? Say let's an adult red dragon has Charisma-based Magic Resistance +10, so it has to beat a DC 15 on Charisma (Magic Resistance) +10 to negate Hold Monster or DC 16 to negate Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, just as if it were casting Counterspell except without range limits, sight limitations, and the possibility of a counter-counterspell. Now it wouldn't matter whether someone is trying to use a Meteor Swarm or a Maze or a Disintegrate or a Wall of Force--they all work pretty much equally well on the dragon/titan/whatever, from the Magic Resistance perspective. You can either cap it at 3 attempts per day or just drop that aspect of magic resistance entirely and say it works as long as the dragon's reaction is free.

I think actively negating hostile magic ("water off a duck's back") is significantly cooler from an in-game perspective than... whatever it is that Legendary Resistance is supposed to be doing.

Thank you for providing an actual alternative for us to contrast to the original mechanism. I feel if we don't show alternatives it's easy to just see the rule as written vs "nothing".

Discussing alternatives opens our eyes to possible weaknesses in the rules, since it makes it so clear there are always options the didn't take.

Now: could you phrase your suggestion as actual rules text? I'll promise to evaluate it?

If you could work it so the *player* gets to make the roll, even better.

(that is, have it be an "overcome legendary resistance" roll rather than yet another monster/DM roll. Much obliged

 

[CapnZapp]

Magic resistance is a big part of the game. There are many creatures against which magic simply did not work. That's part of the lore and the story, the counterpoint of monsters resisting mundane weapons. They encourage alternate tactics and force players to consider different strategies than just relying on Plan-A.
Getting rid of it doesn't really add anything to the game. It makes the players slightly more likely to have wasted a spell slot, but it's not like anyone worries about the DM wasting the monster's cool power because the player has Evasion or a resistance.


Legendary Resistance is like democracy. It sucks. It's terrible and easy to game and riddled with inherent, fundamental problems that leave it open to abuse. But it's better than the alternative.
Without something like this, it's too easy to hit a solo type monster with action denial spells or debuffs and then wail on them.
A few things were tried. 4e gave many solos the ability to roll saves at the start of their turn and the option to shake off effects. But sometimes that just didn't work as well. Bad rolls happened.
Legendary Resistances are basically codified fudging. The DM doesn't need to say it's being used, just that the monster succeeds. That's behind the screen.

Do you think there can be a better rules mechanic?

Or are you satisfied with the rules as is?

 

[CapnZapp]

Do you apply this same logic to Counterspell? Caster has to Counterspell blind? If so then it's probably fine to do the same thing to Legendary Resistance.

I think counterspell and legendary would suck if all you know is "the witch is starting to wave her hands and mutter in Abyssal"

The instinctive response is to have you make a skill check or something to recognize what spell it is. And realistically, it should be easy to "stealth cast" spells on larger battlefields.

But that's to complex for 5e IMHO.

Better to simply describe the spell starting to have its effect... And allow the counterspeller (including legendary monsters) to act on that.

Informed decision points is after all a hallmark of good game design.

Plus, the alternative is awful: I don't want to encourage casters to obscure their spellcasting; that mostly slows down game play, and spellcasting classes are already the game's most complex ones.

 

[CapnZapp]

Legendary resistance and magic resistance, resistance to elemental damage, increase in hit points coupled with the decrease in spell slots available to full casters and the saving throw each new round mechanic have had a huge impact on a caster's effectiveness in combat. Add on concentration rules and casters in 5e cannot even really focus on buffing party members. So yeah, it's harsh.

Have you any ideas to soften said harshness...? [emoji2]

 

[Li Shenron]

My 2cp...

Myself, I can appreciate the simplicity of the rule, but I can't shake the feeling it would be possible to create a general framework that allowed BBEGs to absorb "save or suck" spells gradually. I'm thinking "three strikes and you're out", and specifically, how, at two strikes, you're down, but not out.

I'm prepared for some complexity when it comes to BBEG solo monsters. I would have loved if, say, Hold Monster, took "chunks" out of a BBEG one third at a time; meaning a single Hold Monster would slow down or irritate a solo monster but would not take it straight out. Two Hold Monsters would cripple it, but still not render it harmless.

This idea requires ad-hoc rules depending on the spell being cast. Which is certainly feasible, but in this case I wouldn't want to define such rules in advance to try and cover all spells, but I'd rather just adjudicate on the fly (and reserve the rights to handle it differently for different monsters too).

If you have an issue with Legendary Resistance vs low-level spells rather than high-level spells, a simple idea could be to replace the 3/day with "total spell levels per day = monster's CR". This way the monster could negate a few high level spells or many low level spells, or whatever combination. Only a small increase in complexity.

Independently from the previous 2 ideas, it's also possible for the DM to just default to Legendary Resistance to kick-in automatically for the first harmful spells cast on the creature, with no possibility to opt-out, if you think this spares you from the risk of metagaming against your PC's spells array.

Should Magic Resistance be limited to the initial save only?

I wouldn't mind if a DM ruled that this is the case. I don't think the designers thought about Magic Resistance when designing Hold Monster and other spells with a ST per round. In fact, many other spells allow an ability check per round instead of a ST, and those won't be affected by Magic Resistance.

OTOH I prefer 5e Magic Resistance over 3e Spell Resistance, which used an additional mechanics. The 5e way is simpler. And I actually like the idea that sometimes the spellcaster is screwed (which is actually not... unless she only knows offensive spells!), just like sometimes I like that the melee types are screwed, some other times the archers, some other time the sneaky types etc... it's all part of the problem-solving aspect of the game, to adapt to circumstances and act creatively.

 

[dave2008]

I suggested using up Legendary Actions.

But mostly I suggested "after the fact" saves that make the monster recover from effects rather than simply preventing them.

The theory being; seeing your only level 8 slot fizzle and the monster didn't even roll!

...is more of a downer than seeing your spell take hold, but possibly only for half a round or so. That way, your spell might not have won the day all by itself, but it still did something. It wasn't just a complete waste.

Don't think I've found any responses to this bit, yet anyway!

I think what I would like to see are a range of options for both LR and MR. I'll try to post something later today.

I think you have had several responses to that bit as you say, but perhaps not solutions.

 

[Warmaster Horus]

But how does that BBEG know which spell it should or shouldn't save?
I know that most players say "I'm casting X spell, make a save." but IMHO opinion, the BBEG doesn't know that.
If it sees a wall of fire coming it's way, yes it's clear. But a normal spell like hold person or feeblemind? What are the signs? If the BBEG has the spell in it's own repertoire, it can recognize the V/S parts of the spell.

For me, D&D is a storytelling mechanic, not a true-life simulator. Monsters know what they need to know with reasonable cause as it serves the story. Legendary creatures have been to this dance many times before and know how to deal with adventurers and their ilk.

 

[dave2008]

CapnZapp, here are some Magic Resistance options, anything float your boat? Many of these could apply to Legendary Resistance as well.

1) Magic Resistance. The dragon has advantage on saving throws against spells and magical effects.

2) Magic Resistance (Recharge 5-6). The same as option 1, but it must recharge.

3) Magic Resistance (3/day). The same as option 1, but it a limited resource

4) Magic Resistance. The dragon has advantage on saving throws against spells and magical effects. Spells and magical effects that target the dragon have disadvantage on attack rolls. (this can be combined with options 2 or 3)

5) Magic Resistance. The dragon has advantage on saving throws against spells and magical effects of nth level or lower. (this can be combined with options 2, 3 or 4)

6) Magic Resistance. The dragon can use its reaction to gain advantage on saving throws against spells and magical effects. (this can be combined with options 2, 3, 4, or 5)

7) Magic Resistance. The dragon has a number spell resistance points equal to its CR. It can spend these points to gain advantage on its saving throw against spells and magical effects; at the cost of one resistance point per level of the spell cast. (this can be combined with options 2, 3, 4, or 5)

8) Magic Resistance. The same as option 7, except the dragon must use its reaction.

9) Limited Magic Immunity. Unless the dragon wishes to be affected, it is immune to spells of nth level or lower. The dragon has advantage on saving throws against other spells and magical effects.

10) Limited Magic Immunity. The same as option 9, except the dragon must use its reaction.

11) Limited Magic Immunity (Recharge 5-6). The same as option 9 or 10, except the dragon must recharge it.

12) Limited Magic Immunity (3/day). The same as option 9 or 10, except the uses of it are limited.

13) Limited Magic Immunity. The dragon has a number spell immunity points equal to its CR. It can spend these points to gain immunity to spells, at the cost of one immunity point per level of the spell cast. (Any of the magic resistance options can be added as a rider)

14) Limited Magic Immunity. The dragon has a number spell resistance points equal to its CR. It can use a reaction to spend these points and gain immunity to spells, at the cost of one immunity point per level of the spell cast. (Any of the magic resistance options can be added as a rider)

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Thank you for providing an actual alternative for us to contrast to the original mechanism. I feel if we don't show alternatives it's easy to just see the rule as written vs "nothing".

Discussing alternatives opens our eyes to possible weaknesses in the rules, since it makes it so clear there are always options the didn't take.

Now: could you phrase your suggestion as actual rules text? I'll promise to evaluate it?

If you could work it so the *player* gets to make the roll, even better.

(that is, have it be an "overcome legendary resistance" roll rather than yet another monster/DM roll. Much obliged

Sure. Here's my attempt. Also inline below.

-Max

5E Magic Resistance (variant rule)
Variant rule: Magic Resistance
[This rule replaces both Monstrous Manual Magic Resistance and Legendary Resistance. Creatures with one or the other should be assigned a Magic Resistance ability and score.]

Some extremely powerful creatures strongly resist and disrupt the effects of magical energy. These creatures live and breath arcane energy, and by an act of will they can cause magic to recoil from them like water droplets skittering off a hot griddle.

A creature with Magic Resistance can apply that resistance whenever it is affected by a magical effect by expending its reaction. If there is a saving throw or attack roll involved, it can wait until the result is known before deciding to use Magic Resistance. When Magic Resistance is used, the creature makes an ability check against the DC of the magical effect (similar to Counterspell) and if the check succeeds, the magical effect is negated. Unlike Counterspell, the check need not occur at the instant of spellcasting. A Magic Resistant creature could, for example, attempt to walk through a Wall of Force, and at the instant where the Wall of Force prevents its movement, expend its reaction to dispel the Wall of Force. A Magic Resistant Creature could similarly choose at any time to resist the effects of a Maze spell holding it captive or a Planar Binding spell compelling its obedience.

Example: Esmerelda the Enchantress casts Hold Monster VII on a Balor with DC 18. It rolls an 11 on its saving throw and fails. But before the magic takes hold, the Balor resists the magic! A Balor has +12 to Charisma (Magic Resistance), and Esmerelda cast the spell at 7th level, so the Balor has to make a Charisma (Magic Resistance) roll of DC 17 to avoid being paralyzed. It rolls a 21 and shatters the spell! The spell ends, freeing the Balor and any other creatures targeted by the spell.

Note: because a reaction is required, Magic Resistance cannot be used by creatures who are surprised or incapacitated.

Note 2: because Magic Resistance is an ability check, things which affect ability checks including Hex and Cutting Words do affect Magic Resistance rolls. This is by deliberate mechanical analogy to Counterspell.

Note 3: whether things like a monk's Stunning Strike can be resisted with Magic Resistance depends on how your DM interprets whether they are magical or not. Magic Resistance is not limited strictly to spells but does apply only to things that are fundamentally magic. If the DM rules that magic resistance applies to Stunning Strike, he will also tell you what level spell each strike is equivalent to for purposes of Magic Resistance. It might be appropriate to set the level equal to the monk's proficiency bonus.

Variant: some DMs might want the players to do the rolling instead of the monsters. A mathematically-equivalent formulation to the above is: monster spends its reaction to set a DC equal to 12 + Charisma (Magic Resistance). The player then has to roll to beat that score with a bonus equal to the level of the spell. In the case of Esmerelda, she can roll at +7 to beat the Balor's DC 24. Just as before, there are 4 chances in 20 that the Balor is affected by the spell.

 

[Jester David]

Do you think there can be a better rules mechanic?

Or are you satisfied with the rules as is?

It's good enough.

They resist magic, so it's harder for them to fail saving throws against magic. That makes sense. It works because as the mechanic doesn't have to describe how it works with every possible spell, because it uses a resistance mechanic already in the game. Saves are easy to resolve, and the DM was already making the roll. And if they forget magic resistance initially, it's easy to roll later; you don't need to know the result of the initial roll.
And it's a mechanic we know, unlike a separate Spell Resistance mechanic ala 1e, 2e, or 3e. It's not asking the players to remember what to roll and add to bypass Spell Resistance, putting resolving the monster's mechanic in the player's hand. It's self-contained.
It's also not giving the DM a second roll to just ignore the spell outright. Many spells at least have a partial effect with a successful save.