Selling items : illogical rule ?

[robertliguori]

The rule means that a sword in the hand is worth five in the bush.

It also means that no one in his right mind would ever reduce a magic item to residuum unless he absolutely had to. This includes merchants.

The cost of an extra cart, two draft horses, a driver and a year's worth of upkeep probably comes to around 500-600 gp. The sale of a single level 3 item at merchant markup prices more than justifies that kind of expense.

That cart can carry a ton of magic items. Literally.

A ton.

How many magic items can a merchant sell in a year? I think the real question is, "How many nobles have a vested interest in protecting their land from bandits, monsters and neighboring city-states?"

From where I'm standing, 4E economics provide powerful motivation to spend less time plundering ancient tombs and more time looking for buyers -- exactly the opposite of the stated intent.

I can live with that, though. I can base an entire campaign on it, really. What gets me is the idea that no sane metalsmith would ever bother learning to make weapons and armor when he could have a much more lucrative business cranking out 10' lengths of chain at 30 gp apiece.

Weird.

The pattern described here is my biggest problem with 4E rules. The designers had a clear idea of how they wanted the world to work, but completely failed to write rules that actually brought that idea to life. The Credible Threat rule (or non-rule) fails to address the underlying issue of perverse incentives; namely, that it's mechanically advantageous to engage in multiple, boring party-on-single-minion encounters. Rather than call out the fact that the perverse incentive exists and point out that having the characters find reason to ignore it makes for a more fun gaming experience, they instead threw in a rule-that-isn't, that is applied wildly and inconsistently across the gameworld.

Likewise, the clear intent of the rules is to avoid the party carrying multiple wagonloads of loot and bodies out of a furnished dungeon, sextupling their net worth, and buying their way up to level N+5 effectiveness. Again, the 20% price rule is intensely problematic; characters seeking optimal return will simply spend even more non-fun game time seeking interested buyers for their items.

One of the points that 4E harps upon (and often correctly so) is that DM adjudication is vital for a living and interesting game and game world. However, it doesn't go quite far enough. I'd much rather the system be simple, clean, and elegant, and warning flags be explicitly raised whenever the logical consequences of the system lead to (possibly) undesired outcomes. "You can gain benefit from ganking sole minions, but it's not fun, so please don't." is a much stronger statement than "You can gain benefit from ganking sole minions, but I don't want you to, so it's now difficult."; I think that 4E should have had much more of the first style statement than the second.

 

[Caliban]

Except, that's completely wrong.

Sorry I said anything. Carry on.

 

[ExploderWizard]

There is nothing wrong with the rule at all. Take a look at what magic items actually DO these days. I wouldn't want to pay more than 20% for that stuff either.

 

[DM_Blake]

The rule means that a sword in the hand is worth five in the bush.

It also means that no one in his right mind would ever reduce a magic item to residuum unless he absolutely had to. This includes merchants.

From where I'm standing, 4E economics provide powerful motivation to spend less time plundering ancient tombs and more time looking for buyers -- exactly the opposite of the stated intent.

Exactly.

In a Points of Light world, where every living person exists in a world full of monsters lurking behind every rock, tree, and fencepost. Where no farmer can till his field without fell creatures leaping out of the shadows to devour him. Where the overworked militia are tasked to defend their peasantry from the horrors of this harrowing world. and where the royal and noble families of the land are charged with providing for the people who work their lands and pay their taxes, people who cannot do this if they cannot till their fields or bring their wares to market without ending up in the bellies of some monstrous beasties.

In that world, there must be a market for weapons, armor, and other magical doo-dads that can fend of the savage monster masses.

It's inconceivable that such a world can exist, but nobody who has to survive in that world places any real value on the very tools that can give them a chance to survive.

Furthermore, economy is a two-way street. If nobody in the world can afford to pay more than a few hundred gold for a magic sword, then a few hundred gold is the value of that sword. PCs should expect to pay that much to buy one, and receive that much to sell one.

Sure, some alert merchant might realize that an adventurer is loaded with coin and desperate enough to purchase the magic sword, and this astute merchant might jack up his price accordingly.

But, without a doubt, adventurers would see this happen a time or two and would very quickly devise solutions to the problem. Dress as a peasant, or a merchant, or a minor nobleman, invent a cover story about buying a magical sword for his body guard or the sergeant of his estate guards. Anything to throw off that scalping merchant.

Build an economy that evolves around the actual value an item has to the society where that item is being bought and sold. Allow the manufacturers to make that item for less than that value. Allow the merchants to gouge when they can, or offer discounts to encourage purchases when they must, but even so, their prices reflect the actual value of the item. Then insert PCs into that economy.

It's not too hard a concept.

Unfortunately, the 4e system didn't bother to do this, and leaves it up to DMs to muddle through their ridiculous economy, or to invent a new one of their own.

Yet another way WotC is sending a clear signal that we don't really need to buy their product since we will still have to houserule a significant amount of the game system - we might just be better off inventing our own game system because it won't be much more work.

What gets me is the idea that no sane metalsmith would ever bother learning to make weapons and armor when he could have a much more lucrative business cranking out 10' lengths of chain at 30 gp apiece.

Weird.

LoL, yeah, why make an entire suit of platemail for 50gp when you can make 17 feet of chain to earn more profit. 17 feet of chain has got to be way less material and effort than a full suit of platemail.

 

[Celebrim]

Likewise, the clear intent of the rules is to avoid the party carrying multiple wagonloads of loot and bodies out of a furnished dungeon, sextupling their net worth, and buying their way up to level N+5 effectiveness. Again, the 20% price rule is intensely problematic; characters seeking optimal return will simply spend even more non-fun game time seeking interested buyers for their items.

That's a very good point. They have vastly increased the marginal utility of taking RP time to sell your stuff. Instead of creating a system that just works, so you don't have to think about it if you don't want to, they created a system that heavily rewards you for thinking about how badly the system screws you over and acting in game accordingly.

 

[Danceofmasks]

What, you mean like tracking down and ganking groups of lawful good PCs 'cos they've been dutifully collecting residuum in order to equip themselves with?

 

[ExploderWizard]

What's worse... I get the impression that many people chanting this mantra really believe that all you need to handle a defective game system is an experienced DM to adjust things as needed.

I continue to remain flabbergasted at this evident belief.

Nonetheless it is true. That never excuses a poorly designed game of course but an experienced DM can take any system and run a good game. I do agree that using this excuse to mask lazy design decisions is a bad move.

 

[DM_Blake]

For me, I think it also opens up the way for loopholes. For example, the first thing I would do in a universe like that would be to take steps to promote a barter economy among the world's magic item users. Instead of selling magic items to merchant middle men who were realizing huge profits at my expense, I would arrange to trade other adventuring parties or magic item producers for thier loot directly.

Nope.

Can't do it.

If you wish to acquire a +1 longsword from another adventuring party, you would have to trade them five of your own +1 weapons, because you can only receive 20% of the value of your stuff.

It's a rule.

In some groups I've been in, the first thing that would happen is that we'd realize that there was fatter loot to be had and easier robbing magic item merchants rather than raiding dungeons. I even played one character who would have seen the magic item merchant cabal setting its monopolitistic prices as a greater villainous threat than the evil cult minding thier own business in some remote location. Based on the prices that they bought and sold for, that character would immediately have tagged the merchants as the campaigns villains and acted accordingly.

Yep, I would do much the same thing, with some of my characters.

"Those greedy merchants are opressing us! They rob us of the very tools we need to survive, pricing them way out of reach of all but the privileged class! To arms, my fellow revolutionaries! Take up your pitchforks, your spades, your torches! Let us tear down these oppressive tyrants and force them all to bow to the Bastille!"

And Marie Antoinette will let us eat cake?

 

[DM_Blake]

Nonetheless it is true. That never excuses a poorly designed game of course but an experienced DM can take any system and run a good game. I do agree that using this excuse to mask lazy design decisions is a bad move.

Agreed.

I don't dispute the validity of claim; I only dispute the use of the claim to defend or justify the flawed system.

It's circular reasoning.

"This system is so great that any experienced DM can adjust it to make it work..."

I don't get that justification.

 

[Regicide]

Please, right now, go outside and try to sell your car for it's full new price, or heck, how about your watch instead. You have 8 hours (typical sell time in DnD), and you can't use any mass media means or a telephone, you're on foot and you can yell loudly, thats it.

Good luck with that.