Semi-Rant: Maturity and dumbing down a game

[swrushing]

Imagine if there was a rule in D&D that went something like this: "If you narrate your actions in such a way that everyone else at the table says, "Cool!" then you get a +2 bonus on your next roll."

A rule like that is encouraging a certain style of role-playing.

those who already do so and are good at it gain free +2s for doing what they wo otherwise.

others, who don't like it or aren't good at it, try a few times, get nada, and stop.

 

[Shemeska]

Way to make him feel welcome guys.

You know, God forbid anyone wishes to promote one style of play over another. Because, as you know, we must accept everything, regardless of anything. Everything is beautiful and special and unique. *emphatic spineless hand wringing*

I'd have no problem being as picky as possible in snagging players who prefer one playing style over another. If a person is in it for the number munching and has no interest in character development, they need to find someone with that same 'shallow' level of gameplay, or go play DDM, etc. I'll tolerate and accept that folks will play like that, but in no way will I support it, or accept anyone of that style into a game I run.

And to be honest I don't have a problem with folks making generalizations about them as being munchkins, or less mature players, or shallow, etc. They're free to make up the same to describe other playing styles that look down their noses at them. That's a part of the give and take of life. And frankly, I think dumping on someone for having the temerity to voice their opinion on varying styles of play is worse than anything they might have said in the first place.

 

[LostSoul]

others, who don't like it or aren't good at it, try a few times, get nada, and stop.

But imagine if they didn't get nada. They try, they get positive reinforcement from the group, and they get a mechanical bonus. Good all around. Of course, if the group is going to be harsh and basically say, "You suck", there's bigger problems at that table.

 

[LostSoul]

They're free to make up the same to describe other playing styles that look down their noses at them. That's a part of the give and take of life. And frankly, I think dumping on someone for having the temerity to voice their opinion on varying styles of play is worse than anything they might have said in the first place.

Well, when that opinion is "I rock, and if you don't play like me, you suck" then they deserve to get dumped on.

And getting dumped on when you dump on other people is part of the give and take of life.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Way to make him feel welcome guys.

You know, God forbid anyone wishes to promote one style of play over another. Because, as you know, we must accept everything, regardless of anything. Everything is beautiful and special and unique. *emphatic spineless hand wringing*

I'd have no problem being as picky as possible in snagging players who prefer one playing style over another. If a person is in it for the number munching and has no interest in character development, they need to find someone with that same 'shallow' level of gameplay, or go play DDM, etc. I'll tolerate and accept that folks will play like that, but in no way will I support it, or accept anyone of that style into a game I run.

And to be honest I don't have a problem with folks making generalizations about them as being munchkins, or less mature players, or shallow, etc. They're free to make up the same to describe other playing styles that look down their noses at them. That's a part of the give and take of life. And frankly, I think dumping on someone for having the temerity to voice their opinion on varying styles of play is worse than anything they might have said in the first place.

It's one thing to enjoy a certain style of play. It's another to come into a public forum and badmouth people who don't play the way you like. I think the correct answer to the original poster is "get stuffed." I play D&D the way I like to play D&D. If I wanted to be part of an improv drama troupe I'd join an improv drama troupe. Hell, I did that! It was fun, but it's not what I want to do at the gaming table. Where the hell do people get off on these "your fun is bad fun and you're stupid for enjoying it" tirades, anyway? Do they just not get enough ego primping at home, so they have to go on the internet to make themselves feel superior to other people?

Gawds! I play a mean game of D&D. I enjoy roleplaying and I enjoy killing things and taking their stuff. When I DM, my NPCs are interesting characters and they have motivations that go far beyond the scope of simply being roadbumps for the PCs to roll over on their way to phat loot. But somehow I'm a lesser form of gamer because I don't enjoy spending twenty minutes each combat round describing the particular flourish my axe-wielding barbarian uses as he disembowels an orc? Go play your game the way you want to play it and don't worry about the rest of us. We'll do just fine with our plebian badfun.

 

[shilsen]

The only rule is: If you're having fun, you're doing it right.

All else is nothing but taste.

Yup, yup, yup.

And frankly, I think dumping on someone for having the temerity to voice their opinion on varying styles of play is worse than anything they might have said in the first place.

I think Dremmen has a right to voice his opinions, but then everyone else also has a right to agree or disagree. I think that's pretty much all that's happening here.

 

[SweeneyTodd]

I don't think heavy description and "mature" play are the same thing. We wrestle with some pretty heavy moral dilemmas in our games, and cover a lot of mature subjects. But we don't necessarily use heavy description and lots of dialog while we're doing it.

 

[Testament]

I do think gamers that play at what I discribed as High School level, others call hack and slash, have some maturing to do within the game regardless of how old they are. And in SO many games I've run the majority of the players do play at that High School level. This eventually causes the Lowest Denominator effect in that since those players are not putting in the effort, the quality of all the players in that game begins to erode. The better - yes, BETTER - RPGers begin to play down and combat becomes - "does it attack?" "attack of opportunity" " me too" "what's its AC?" " I miss" " I hit. 8dmg." - stale, insipid, uninspired gameplay that is the antithesis of RPG. Role-Playing. Playing a Role.

And at this point, you lose me. The instant you say "better", you're like all those other pontificating "One True Way" sayers with their Mark Rein*Hagen era White Wolf books.

In my opinion, which I'll defend with my own 20 years of experience, true role-playing is narrative style gameplay where mechanics become secondary to the plot and the story and the "play" that is being put on by the people playing roles. And in most core books it explicitly states how rules are meant to be bent and the important thing is to have fun.

I personally hate movies like "Deuce Bigalow" and pretty much anything else featuring Rob Schneider, or anything in the vein of "American Pie". Thing is, people enjoy them. You consider the verbose narrative style to be superior, and seem to be actively denigrating people who don't play in that way (see above). News flash mate, people have fun playing in this 'inferior' way, and you've even referred to fun being the end goal. You lose.

The mechanics have to be imbedded under the storytelling or it becomes a boardgame, or a video game. And if all this extra talking slows the game down - so what?! In a true RPG it is NEVER about the ending, about the outcome, it is always about the road before you and the getting there, smelling the flowers. In a good RPG game the party should be sad to kill the end guy because it means they are done with the session. The times around the taverns and the jokes around the campfires and the tense moments in the dungeons- Its not about getting to 18th level or who's got the most toys at the end. What does that mean? Is a character better for it? Does it mean anything? "Oh my character can kill your character - oh look (scribble, scribble), my character has a 14" member, bow before how manly I am." A meaningless pissing contest. Its the well played, interesting character, the funny one, or flirty one, or clumsy one, or even cowardly one, that is memorable and lives on in stories told laughingly to gamers around the table. You can sit there and boast about how much damage you could do or how you killed Tiamat - there is always another PC out there that's stronger and more powerful. On top of that you missed the point. Its the interaction with the other people in the game under the guise of this alternate personality that allows one to explore what is like to be in someone else's shoes, to think things through from a slightly different perspective.

Seems to me that you've missed the point. Its not the interaction necessarily, its to have fun. Even if it is wrongbadfun. If someone's having fun kicking the snot out of Tiamat, or getting to 18th level, then SO FRUGGIN' WHAT? The end goal of any game is to have fun. If you're enjoying playing in your way, GOOD FOR YOU! Don't come here telling us how to have fun though.

 

[Testament]

Oh look. Another "my way of playing is better" thread. Perhaps we should keep an archive of these somewhere so that no one feels compelled to post any new ones.

I vote for this!

 

[Hussar]

See, to me, I want to get throught the mechanical fighting bits as quickly as possible so I can get back to role playing. The mechanical fighting bits are slow enough as it is, without dragging them out all through the night while Thespeus the Amateur figures out how to rhyme "bastard sword" in iambic pentameter. A little goes a long way.

And, just a point:

It used to be you could describe a scene and character could sya what they are doing, but now, the combat is quite complex, how do narratively say, im sticking 3 points of BA into my AC and 3 points in Power Attack into damage, leaving me with only +7 to hit, and im going to move form here to here to get the flanking bonus.

Player: Weaving and dodging, I take up position across from Gerry and take a solid grip on my (weapon on choice). I slam it down with an overhand swing! ((3 points into Combat expertise, 3 points power attack, and I get +2 for flanking.))

That's how you do that. It annoys me to no end when people can't seem to combine mechanics and description. It's not difficult and, as an added bonus, it actually reflects what you are doing.