Semi-Rant: Maturity and dumbing down a game

[Nac_Mac_Feegle]

I think one of the things destroyed by narrative now is 3.x

It used to be you could describe a scene and character could sya what they are doing, but now, the combat is quite complex, how do narratively say, im sticking 3 points of BA into my AC and 3 points in Power Attack into damage, leaving me with only +7 to hit, and im going to move form here to here to get the flanking bonus.

I dont quite see it, then of course, theres the need for the combat map, once thats down, the illusion is destroyed, UNLESS your lucky enough to own a very large selection of Figures and scenery to fully depict the actual moment (Adopt me owner of the worlds greatest gaming table, im 33 and almost house trained).

But the battle map is a necessity now with feats, especially for the fighters and rogues, I cant recall using figures once while playing AD&D or AD&D 2nd edition, the combat options were much simpler that you could just describe it and go.

Also, if you have some players who are naturally outgoing and some who are shy (hey how about that, some of us gaming geeks might be shy) then the narrative playstyle will hinder the shy ones, to a point where they wont feel they can play, or they lose xp for not "playing" properly. It wont be fun for the shy ones, and if it isnt fun, it cant be a game.

I liked what you said in your first post, and I would love to be able to talk like that in game, and describe the surroundings so well, but I cant, and I dont suffer a lack of confidence, nor am I naturally shy, but I do find myself incapable of speaking like that in game, or anywhere else for that matter.

It hasnt stopped me from playing D&D for 22 years, and it wont continue to stop me either, and I do have a lot of fun at our "RPG" sessions. Even though we are what you might call "Role Play" light

Feegle Out

 

[Psion]

With that out of the way, I'm still trying to figure out why so many people play d20 as is and expect lots of roleplaying.

Er, you don't get lots of roleplaying in your game? Sorry to hear that.

 

[Tewligan]

Is it too much to try to get players to play up to the narrative style instead of playing down to where they are comfortable?

Yes, it is too much. If the players are comfortable playing a certain style, then you're wrong to try to force them to play in a super-narrative style. I enjoy a lot of roleplaying when I game, but I know that I would get exasperated in pretty short order if a combat played out with the detail you described in your example. You keep using words like "never" and "necessary" in your rant to describe what you think the point of the game is, and how it should be played. There's no right way to play, Dremmen. The 13-year-olds wading through the hapless denizens of the Deities and Demigods book with their 250th level characters are having just as much fun as you are, and they're just as right.

 

[NeroVenedict]

I quite enjoy a mix of both narrative and semi narrative/number crunching. It's because of the limit of time. Now, I LOVE 2nd edition more than 3rd but I like a lot of what 3.x has in it. So I just use both! My table is compiled of 3.x and 2nd edition books. As far as the figures go for killing the whole illusion of imagination. I don't think so. I think using overly detailed terrain and minitures overwhelm the imagination. I use simple grid and pebbles or something for my maps and location. That way it leaves it up to your imagination because if a rock is on a black and white featureless grid........your not going to imagine your character as a rock!

 

[MadMaxim]

Well, I'm imagining I'm doing stuff that I couldn't do in the real world, like battle dragons and orcs. I roll dice to see if I hit them. Am I not playing the role of a valiant fighter battling hordes of enemies by just rolling some dice with some friends? I don't need to make minute-long monologues about my actions for the others to get the picture. That's where their own imaginations come in to fill the holes. We're playing a roleplaying game after all... It's just as much a game like Monopoly as it is a play. But that's just my opinion.

 

[Oryan77]

Well personally, I find your example of "narrative roleplaying" or proper roleplaying to be bad roleplaying (no offense). Not that that makes me right or anything.

If I was at a table, and the players spoke with such detailed descriptions as you wrote, it would make the game seem less realistic to me. Describing details like that in a book is one thing, but claiming that doing so in person is "roleplaying" is questionable. The players would come off as robots to me. No life in them, and trying too hard to sound more like a professional author rather than an actor portraying his character. It sounds phony to me and would probably get annoying pretty fast.

As a fellow roleplayer, and a DM who's players remind me often about how much they love the way I roleplay NPC's and make them really interesting; I don't need to hear detailed descriptions about how they are preparing for a fight and the emotions running through them. What I want to hear is a casual & to-the-point description about how they may be preparing for the fight.

For example, telling me they spit on the floor, grab their battleaxe, get in a fighting stance, and twirl their weapon around is great. I would even enjoy hearing a good one-liner. But I don't need to know that they are breathing heavily, sweating, or swaying back and forth in their stance as their weight shifts. That's not roleplaying, that's just taking over the DM's job as the narrator.

If you want others to know your character is afraid to fight, then roleplay it, don't talk about it. When your initiative comes up, tell the DM you hesitate and hold your action. Or speak in character and tell the group that you don't feel good about this fight, and have your PC flee. Or drop your weapon and fall back doing nothing for a few rounds. Act it out, that's what roleplaying means to me. The only time I want to hear narrating is when I'm reading the blurbs from my notes or the rare occasion when I tell the group that a PC looks nervous & scared because I know that's the image that player wants for his PC and I assume he would like me to express that to the group.

As I always tell people, "Just because you say 'thou, thy, thee, & thine while speaking in a bad Scottish Accent doesn't mean you are roleplying". Roleplaying means you take the role of a character and act it out. It's more about personality & interaction than it is about vocabulary and accents. It's the same with narrative roleplaying. Don't be a lifeless robot that's good at giving descriptions...if you have personality, all of the details will come across to the group without you needing to describe every little thing.

But my opinion doesn't mean a whole lot because there's so many styles of play and everyone prefers something different.

 

[LostSoul]

I know it's tempting to think that people who enjoy a different style of play than what you enjoy simply haven't learned the lessons you've learned.

But the truth is we all learn DIFFERENT things from the same lessons. And what we enjoy depends largely on what we've learned we like.

The only rule is: If you're having fun, you're doing it right.

All else is nothing but taste.

I agree with this 100%.

 

[LostSoul]

Why do you need rules to encourage role playing? Why would you need a character sheet that has a place for role playing? The character sheet and the rules don't role play; the people playing the game do.

You don't need rules to encourage role-playing, but the rules encourage different types of role-playing.

Imagine if there was a rule in D&D that went something like this: "If you narrate your actions in such a way that everyone else at the table says, "Cool!" then you get a +2 bonus on your next roll."

A rule like that is encouraging a certain style of role-playing.

 

[Mort]

I know it's tempting to think that people who enjoy a different style of play than what you enjoy simply haven't learned the lessons you've learned.

But the truth is we all learn DIFFERENT things from the same lessons. And what we enjoy depends largely on what we've learned we like.

The only rule is: If you're having fun, you're doing it right.

All else is nothing but taste.

This deserves to be said again - wholeheartedly agree.

Everyone in my group is a working professional with family and a stressful job in tow. Sometimes we like to roleplay and realy get into character, but much of the time my group likes to kill evil things and take their stuff, so they can kill more evil things. They have a ball doing it, and as the DM I have fun letting them do it. what's the problem?

 

[Doug McCrae]

Am I wrong?

Yes u are, completely. You have a bad case of One True Way-itis.