[Semi-rant] Why is two-weapon fighting more defensive than sword and board?

[Hardhead]

You know what gets on my nerves? The feats out there that raise the AC of two weapon fighters, when there's not a SINGLE feat for specifically for sword and board types. The only one, really, is Shield Expertise from S&F, which is just a way of letting them use TWF with a shield.

Let's compare the ACs of two builds trying to be defensive:

The sword-and-board fighter takes the only feats really available to him for raising AC: Expertise and Dodge.

The two weapon fighter takes Dodge, Twin Sword Style from Forgotten Realms and Improved Buckler Defense from Complete Warrior.

ACs: The Sword and Board fighter has a +3 AC bonus from his feats and his shield. He can spend to-hit bonuses to improve it.

The Two weapon fighter has... a +4 AC bonus from his feats and his shield.

Plus, the two weapon fighter gets an extra attack with his off hand (that attack has a -1 from the buckler, but it's better than the nothing that Mr. Sword and Board gets) .

Sure, the two weapon fighter spent an extra feat, but that's only because Mr. Sword and Board doesn't have any other defensive feats to buy. Even with an even number of feats, 2WFer has the same AC and more attacks.

Shouldn't the Sword-and-Board guy have a better AC, considering he's giving up the use of two weapons or a two-handed weapon?

 

[BrooklynKnight]

What about the initial +1 or 2 or even +3 from the shield?

Plus magical enhancments that you can place on a shield. All of which stack with Armor. You cannot do that with TWF

 

[Crothian]

Well, grabbing a single d20 book I found three shield feats that directly increase AC: Sheild Focus, Shield Mastery, Shield Specialization. So, my guess is there are feats that do this in books you don't have.

 

[Hardhead]

What about the initial +1 or 2 or even +3 from the shield?

Plus magical enhancments that you can place on a shield. All of which stack with Armor. You cannot do that with TWF

You can't... but the 2WFer is using a shield. The cost to enhance his buckler is just the same as the cost of the Sword and Boarder to enhance his large steel sheild.

EDIT:

Well, grabbing a single d20 book I found three shield feats that directly increase AC: Sheild Focus, Shield Mastery, Shield Specialization. So, my guess is there are feats that do this in books you don't have

What book is that?

 

[Crothian]

Feats of course.

 

[BrooklynKnight]

*thonk*

 

[MacMathan]

I agree. IMC we have added a Shield Feat that gives +1 AC with the non-buckler shields to keep the style relevant also we don't allow FR feats and we are not yet decided about allowing in the feats from Complete Warrior. This keeps the shield user at least 2 AC ahead. I imagine if we do let Improved Buckler Defense in, we will add another "Improved Non-Buckler Defense" feat for balance. The idea being anyting a buckler can do a bigger shield should do better AC-wise.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I'm kinda in agreement here. I'd like to see some mighty, mighty feats for the sword-and-board that make it competetive, if not superior, to the TWF defensive abilities. In fact, I'm going to create some right now. See you guys tomorrow!

 

[Silveras]

You know what gets on my nerves? The feats out there that raise the AC of two weapon fighters, when there's not a SINGLE feat for specifically for sword and board types. The only one, really, is Shield Expertise from S&F, which is just a way of letting them use TWF with a shield.

Let's compare the ACs of two builds trying to be defensive:

The sword-and-board fighter takes the only feats really available to him for raising AC: Expertise and Dodge.

The two weapon fighter takes Dodge, Twin Sword Style from Forgotten Realms and Improved Buckler Defense from Complete Warrior.

ACs: The Sword and Board fighter has a +3 AC bonus from his feats and his shield. He can spend to-hit bonuses to improve it.

The Two weapon fighter has... a +4 AC bonus from his feats and his shield.

Plus, the two weapon fighter gets an extra attack with his off hand (that attack has a -1 from the buckler, but it's better than the nothing that Mr. Sword and Board gets) .

Sure, the two weapon fighter spent an extra feat, but that's only because Mr. Sword and Board doesn't have any other defensive feats to buy. Even with an even number of feats, 2WFer has the same AC and more attacks.

Shouldn't the Sword-and-Board guy have a better AC, considering he's giving up the use of two weapons or a two-handed weapon?

This looks like a textbook example of someone who has made a decision and then digs up just enough evidence to "prove" it.

1) As previously mentioned, the FR feat is not universally available. It is a specific feat for FR, limited to characters from 3 regions *when played as written* -- gee, regions where Sword & Board is not common, perhaps ? Allowing the feat to be used out of context is up to the DM, but s/he should understand it before doing so.

2) Even if the feat is allowed, the AC bonus is (like Dodge) limited to 1 opponent per round.

3) The buckler-wielding character still takes a -1 penalty to attacks with the weapon in that hand.

4) The buckler-wielding character IS a Sword & Board character (the board is just smaller than usual); the feat from CW negates a penalty (losing the Shield bonus of the buckler when attacking) -- it does not grant any extra bonuses. This works equally well for the S&B character who wants to occasionally use an off-hand attack as it does for the TWF-er who wants to use a buckler on occasion.

5) Actually, the buckler-wielding character attacking with two weapons can be argued to be a hybrid character, exploiting the benenfits of feats and equipment to match his/her style.

6) Typical Sword & Board warriors gain a benefit of +2 from large shields, + enhancement; the bucker-user is limited to +1 +enhancement. Also, typical S&B combatants wear heavy armor, while TWF combatants do not.

 

[Darklone]

I suggest to have a look at the Shield Specialisation feat in the Kalamars Players Guide ...

And no, I've seen many TWF builds and they never had better AC than the sword&board dude. Seems like magic shields are cheaper than the 666th TWD feat.

As for "the typical TWF dude does not wear heavy armour"... ok, prolly he wasn't typical since most people imagine their TWF dudes as light armoured mobile fighters ... But:
The most effective combination of fighters I saw in my campaign was a ftr/rog dwarf in the heaviest armour he could get with a double weapon. He stood in front with maxxed out AC from Expertise, Dodge and TWD. The light armoured mobile bbn/rog with a greatsword tumbled/spring attacked into flanking position as soon as his buddy closed to melee and whacked the world of pain into the opponents. Nice trick: He hit one opponent very badly, then moved on with Spring Attack to flank another one.That second dude got to enjoy a full attack action of the high hitpoints dwarf ftr/rog with extra sneak attack damage.