(semi-Tolkien) A question concerning a nation of long-lived people

[Barendd Nobeard]

But if they could not expand...

Overpopulation would run rampant, and lack of resources - food, space, etc - would eventually create an environment where a nation's people began killing themselves off, until they reached an equilibrium with the available resources. Overcrowded populations of rodents - notably rats - have shown tendencies to "self destruct" if overcrowded, killing one another for what may seem no reason. Lemmings go so far as to commit mass suicide when populations get too large.

So...

Assuming that the long lived people in control stayed in control - a very likely possibility - I suggest that some sage would eventually recognize the trend and some one would get the bright idea to artificially control population levels. Since you've already stated that people will continue to reproduce at the normal human rate, I figure that those in power would probably be forced to commit murder on a fairly grand scale just to maintain control of the situation.

This might take the form of mass religious matyrdom against a foreign power, or sacrifice of the frstborn male, or extermination of one or more ethnic groups. No matter what, it would be messy, and would definitely be evil in D&D terms (not to mention the real world - I know I would place them all firmly in that catagory).

Hmmm, maybe that's why the quick breeding Orcs and Goblins behave the way they do?

You can also think Logan's Run. If nature or culture can't control the population, the government will at least try to do so.

In LR, not enough resources exist, so everyone has to die at age 30 (in the film; 21 in the book). In the movie, the authorities even devised a very impressive ritual ("Carousel") that supposedly gives everyone a chance at rebirth. It's just a lie; they're killing people to prevent overpopulation.

 

[Darkness]

Since it's more about fantasy in general rather than about RPGs, I moved this thread into our new Sci-Fi/Fantasy discussion board.

 

[Agback]

When you -know- you're going to live for five hundred years ... what possible reason is there for you to boink out a kid every year and a half?

Lack of access to contraception.

Regards,


Agback

 

[Umbran]

I think there's a basic flaw in assuming these people behave exactly as normal humans. I'm not sure it's a plausible posit.

Ever leave a Windows desktop machine running for too long? It starts going quirky after a while, and eventually crashes. It isn't designed for excessive up-time, and errors build up. To get long up-times, you generally go to some flavor of Unix, because it's designed to handle long up-time.

At the moment, we have no evidence that the human mind is Unix. Maybe the human mind can handle time, and maybe it can't. While it may seem reasonable to assume things are okay, it's also just as reasonable to assume that this is not okay, and that after about a century, these people start going barking mad.

And, if they aren't barking mad, then you really need to assume that they are rational, no? And is "normal" (meaning short-lived) human behavior rational for a people who live so long? No, it isn't. They will change their behavior to fit the new situation - this society, for it's own good, will learn to control it's population growth or destroy itself quickly. They wil learn to delay childbirth until much later in life.

So, my suggestion is that they are either collectively mad (and not acting like normal humans), collectively wise (and not acting like normal humans) or collectively dead (having acted like normal humans).

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

But what of Gondor, then?

Ok, these are great points everyone is making.

Now, extrapolate to Tolkien for a minute.

After the Last Alliance, the new Realm of Gondor was like the theoretical setting I described.

You have the new cities of Osgiliath, Minas Anor, and Minas Ithil, the ancient city of Pelagir, and the inhabited regions of Anorien, Ithilien, Lamedon, and Lebinnen.
You also have a people ... the descendents of the Numenorians known as the Dunedain ... who live to between 200 and 300 years of age.
Those Dunedain of Royal Blood live the longest.

Now, we know that in Tolkien, Gondor flourished and grew along roughly normal (for medieval) lines.

However, let us say the Dunedain stopped acting like Dunedain should, and started acting like your average Real Life historical people ... did ...

How does Gondor grow then?
What path of growth and evolvement does Gondor take?

And yes, how does Gondor survive the longevity of it's own people, and not disintegrate into chaos?

This is the question Menedil (I believe that's the name), son of Anarion, would have to answer.

Is there an answer?

 

[Atticus_of_Amber]

This discussion is great. it's waht i call "real" scinece fistion: positing a change in the lwas of nature or a technological development and then working ot the likely consequences of that change.

For a look at what migt happen to or modern society if lifespans were greatly increased, see Kim Stanley Robinson's "Mars" series...

As to medieval settingse, I'm thinking...