Separating Attack and Utility Spell Slots

[Thalain]

I would like to see both - some classes could have separate power pools / spell slots / whatever the magic system uses and others use a single pool. While single pools would probably make up the majority of classes, having a few with split pools make for interesting characters.

I have in 3.5 designed a few custom classes with highly split pools and they play well in the hands of experienced, creative users although they would be overwhelming for beginning players.

 

[ren1999]

The idea of spell slots, daily and encounter powers, 1x per day and all that is to limit the number of times a monster such as Dark Adept can heal himself during combat. Or the number of times someone can shoot lightning and hit a 100 enemies in a line or explode a fire ball in a burst 4 space.

I too would like to do away with the spell limitations for characters but how? If we allow burst spells every turn then the character will never choose some of the lesser powers.

We could lower the damage of burst spells. We could raise the damage of touch spells. We could provide better descriptions of how a seemingly weaker spell might be used effectively in combat.

One idea I've been toying with is the possibility of letting characters have an opportunity attack or do a defensive spell while they are attacked and then skip their standard action after that.

The wizard could choose to cast blade barrier when he is attacked. But the wizard can not cast lightning as a standard action. His blade barrier lasts until his turn starts after that.

Similar rules like this are introduced in the play-test which grants AC bonuses if the character skips his standard attack.

 

[KesselZero]

Also, if a spell can be used as a ritual (like Alarm), why would a caster ever prep it?

My sense from the playtest thus far is that some of the balance is going to hinge on money. A caster would prep Alarm because to cast it as a ritual costs 25 gp in components. For a first-level PC, based on what we've seen so far in the playtest, that's a lot of money, as expensive as having your cleric whip up a healing potion for you.

In my playtest, we were trying to determine the best course to take after wearing out our HPs and other resources against the hobgoblins. I thought of casting Alarm as a ritual so we could camp safely (I played the wizard) but I was in a cave-- I didn't have the components. (Nor did I have 25 gold to buy them.) The ritual rule limited me, and we ultimately couldn't stay in the caves any longer and had to make the trek through the wilderness back to town.

If DMs ignore/forget about component costs, then yeah, anything that can be cast as a ritual should. Ditto if a DM just makes you scratch off 25 gold from your character sheet rather than specifically making sure you bought the components (a silver bell, some rope, something like that) before heading out into the wilds. But if you play with the rules as they're (I believe) intended, assuming you'll just cast everything as a ritual can leave you coming up short in a pinch if you didn't or couldn't prepare.

When we finally got 25 gold, the rest of the party bought healing potions. I bought the components for Alarm.

 

[Bagpuss]

But when the party needs that fireball, how will they react to the answer of "I'm not that kind of wizard?"

Usually we dump them at the next tavern and start recruiting for one that is actually useful. Assuming we haven't had a TPK in the meantime.

 

[Argyle King]

I'm the style of player who doesn't usually choose a lot of direct damage spells, so -for me- I like that I can choose more 'utility spells.' I don't like being forced into choices based upon an artificial division of spell type.


I realize that is at odds with my stance on how feats should work. I do feel there should be a division between combat feats (or whatever they end up being called) and things such as linguist. However, that is because previous editions (especially 3rd and 4th) had some strong ideas about what a character should be able to do at a given level built into the game. As such, some choices were trap choices that the game punished you for taking. I do not feel the same way about spells because spells are a way for my character to interact with the game world; feats (and similar things) are a way for my character to interact with the game mechanics. How my character chooses to interact with the game world should be based upon what I want to do; not based upon an arbitrary mechanical division of the game.

edit: I wanted to add that (IMO) 'utility' spells are not necessarily useless in combat. I'm more of a battlefield control style of caster when I play a mage. For example, I once won the day against an extremely difficult 3.5 encounter by creatively using reverse gravity and gate to send a powerful demon to a plane which was hostile to him. Plugging away with damage spells and similar things would have been highly ineffective. I think maybe that is one of the reasons I enjoyed Warlords in 4E so much; I like having the power to shape the battlefield around me. Personally, I find that more interesting, engaging, and effective.

 

[Essenti]

Make every spell actually be a ritual at its core. A wizard “prepares” a spell slot by performing the spell’s ritual during their extended rest or at the beginning of the adventuring day, what-have-you. Preperation commits a spell to a slot, and they are activated during combat by the final execution phrase, command, gesture, or whatever.

If a wizard wants to cast a fireball into a room choked off by a mass of spider webs, they could perform the half-hour long fireball ritual and not expend the spell slot or they can blow the spell slot and forgoe the ritual casting if time is of the essence.

With this system, we can easily lower the number slots a caster has significantly without heavily nerfing the utility and wonder of magic. Casters still maintain flexibility but it is tempered by time and/or material resources for more powerful spells.

Additionally, this offers a convenient method for recovering spells during an adventure day. A caster can recover spells on a short rest by spending the time preparing the ritual during the 20 minute rest (I choose that time arbitrarily, although I had two level 1 slots or one level 2 slot in mind when I chose it).

And, quite frankly, ritual preparation magic makes more sense than spells being sucked out of your head after casting.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

I think that most utility spells should be rituals.

By utility spell, I mean a spell that won't be of any use in 95% of combat, like Comprehend Languages and Alarm.

Spells like Charm Person and Jump are a different matter, as they can help in combat indirectly, even if they offer utility out of combat.

Well, perhaps some utility spells can be rituals.

One of the things that I found fun about older versions of D&D that started dying away with 3E and later was the utility spells for which infinite uses could be found in and out of combat. Using Tenser's Floating Disc for an archer combat platform, for example.

This is easiest to achieve with low level spells of short duration, whose descriptions are relatively vague. Others include prestidigitation and mage hand.

 

[ren1999]

Make every spell actually be a ritual at its core. A wizard “prepares” a spell slot by performing the spell’s ritual during their extended rest or at the beginning of the adventuring day, what-have-you. Preperation commits a spell to a slot, and they are activated during combat by the final execution phrase, command, gesture, or whatever.

I have always thought of spells this way.
I have also been trying to explain healing surges this way as something the healers in the party pray for their allies.