Serenity Roleplaying Game

[eyebeams]

That is what we're discussing, now, isn't it?

Not especially. Threads are about matters of general interest.

Unfortunately, the d20 rules do account for precisely the sort of things I'm talking about. I've run more 3rd Edition D&D games than I can count, and I'm running two d20 Modern games, currently, and I've never - read: EVER - encountered that sort of problem, when rolling.

Using d20 rules, my wife, with maxed out 1st level skill and let's say a +1 bonus besides (+5), has a 25% chance of getting into a car accident if my kids are being a bother (nullifying Take 10 opportunities, charitably assuming they always exist), she has to perform an occasional difficult driving maneuver. Yet amazingly, she lives!

So I urge to to practice what you preach on demanding reasonable simulation. Tell me about the gore-soaked highways of death, maiming and twisted metal that therefore must exist in your d20 Modern games, plzkthx.

 

[molonel]

Not especially. Threads are about matters of general interest.

Cute, but not clever. There are several of us who HAVE been talking about whether or not to buy the game, and the designer acknowledges that this discussion. also involves the opinions of potential buyers. So you're a Johnny-Come-Lately if you feel that suggesting I don't buy the product provides any sort of insight.

Using d20 rules, my wife, with maxed out 1st level skill and let's say a +1 bonus besides (+5), has a 25% chance of getting into a car accident if my kids are being a bother (nullifying Take 10 opportunities, charitably assuming they always exist), she has to perform an occasional difficult driving maneuver. Yet amazingly, she lives! So I urge to to practice what you preach on demanding reasonable simulation. Tell me about the gore-soaked highways of death, maiming and twisted metal that therefore must exist in your d20 Modern games, plzkthx.

Unfortunately, my friend, you're wrong.

You see, DC 15 is what you need to maintain control of your car when driving over an oil slick or caltrops. Not driving down the street.

Since you pulled the number DC 15 out of a warm, dark orifice instead of actually trying to know what you're talking about, the person who actually needs to bone up on what he thinks he knows is you, not me.

Those rules cover the sorts of tasks I'm talking about. I know that, because I've actually played the game instead of talking about it, without reading it.

So stick THAT in your pipe and smoke it, plzkthx.

 

[Pbartender]

Except that your complaint, and the others I've heard in this thread, and yes, even those I've heard on other forums, all say the same thing.

My complaint was simply that the GM wasn't paying attention to "don't make the players roll for routine tasks" guideline. In any D20 game, it'd be the equivalent of counting natural 1s as automatic failures on all ability and skill checks, and then disallowing anyone to Take 10, ever.

I don't disagree that the basic task resolution system of Cortex is a bit wonky, but it is what it is. If the rules say, "don't roll for routine tasks" (regardless of whether its a CYA measure or not), and you blatantly ignore the rule by making the players roll for simple things, you have to expect wonky things to happen... It's partly a problem with the ruleset, but it's also just as much a problem with the DM not paying attention to the ruleset.

I might have had a much different first impression of the game, if I'd had a completely different GM for my introduction to it.

 

[molonel]

I might have had a much different first impression of the game, if I'd had a completely different GM for my introduction to it.

That's a fair comment, and I hear that. Thank you.

My complaint was simply that the GM wasn't paying attention to "don't make the players roll for routine tasks" guideline. In any D20 game, it'd be the equivalent of counting natural 1s as automatic failures on all ability and skill checks, and then disallowing anyone to Take 10, ever.

The one example, though, involves not NOT using the rules, while the second example involves CHANGING the rules.

I don't disagree that the basic task resolution system of Cortex is a bit wonky, but it is what it is. If the rules say, "don't roll for routine tasks" (regardless of whether its a CYA measure or not), and you blatantly ignore the rule by making the players roll for simple things, you have to expect wonky things to happen... It's partly a problem with the ruleset, but it's also just as much a problem with the DM not paying attention to the ruleset.

Fair enough.

The one thing I will say, though, is that the comments I'm hearing about the skills set are not the first time I've heard those complaints, though, and after a while, it really makes me start to wonder where the real problem lies.

 

[eyebeams]

Cute, but not clever. There are several of us who HAVE been talking about whether or not to buy the game, and the designer acknowledges that this discussion. also involves the opinions of potential buyers. So you're a Johnny-Come-Lately if you feel that suggesting I don't buy the product provides any sort of insight.

Actually, my suggestion is that you don't buy the majority of RPGs. From an objective standpoint, the majority simulate non-dramatic reality very poorly.

You see, DC 15 is what you need to maintain control of your car when driving over an oil slick or caltrops. Not driving down the street.

Since you pulled the number DC 15 out of a warm, dark orifice instead of actually trying to know what you're talking about, the person who actually needs to bone up on what he thinks he knows is you, not me.

Actually, I'm talking about DC 10. At +5 a roll of 6-25 provides failure in a quarter of results. It nicely covers typical road hazards in the area I live.

Those rules cover the sorts of tasks I'm talking about. I know that, because I've actually played the game instead of talking about it, without reading it.

So stick THAT in your pipe and smoke it, plzkthx.

The way you parsed what I wrote certainly covered the "without reading" part.

 

[LostSoul]

Then you have to trust the GM. This is why GM trust, along with clear communication, actually *is* the issue. Not acknowledging it outside of a formal social contract and obsessively assuming the group is a tabula rasa is not only a major problem in this discussion, but a major problem in the design community you're up-talking.

I've heard that arguement before and I don't get it. Isn't the problem buzz is talking about one where one person in the group has "privileged authorship"? In buzz's example, the player wants something to happen (enough to use Plot Points) and the GM wants something else to happen, so the GM gets his way.

I don't see how trust comes into it here.

 

[molonel]

Actually, my suggestion is that you don't buy the majority of RPGs. From an objective standpoint, the majority simulate non-dramatic reality very poorly.

In your opinion. Based upon your understanding of the rules systems I know well, I'll heavily salt that recommendation.

Actually, I'm talking about DC 10. At +5 a roll of 6-25 provides failure in a quarter of results. It nicely covers typical road hazards in the area I live.

DC 10 is the difficulty to maintain control of your vehicle after driving over an object the size of a medium-sized crate. You can also make a bootleg 90 degree turn on DC 10.

Has your wife driven over a small boulder while chiding the children in the back seat lately? Or spun a fishtail to avoid police pursuit? If so, she has - by your estimation - about a 75% chance of success.

Keep trying, though. You're bound to hit something right, at least by accident.

The way you parsed what I wrote certainly covered the "without reading" part.

The way you tried to cover your not knowing d20 driving rules was nicely covered in my reply to your dodge.

 

[eyebeams]

I've heard that arguement before and I don't get it. Isn't the problem buzz is talking about one where one person in the group has "privileged authorship"? In buzz's example, the player wants something to happen (enough to use Plot Points) and the GM wants something else to happen, so the GM gets his way.

I don't see how trust comes into it here.

Because it assumes that there isn't a basic, two-(well, multi-) way relationship between players and the GM where the players talk about what they want in the abstract and the GM's agenda is based on giving it to them. The tricky part is that the GM exists to satisfy this in ways that the players don't necessarily expect; that's one of the traditional pleasures of gaming and why that privilege exists.

There's an especially troubling bit of rhetoric that's making the rounds that claims that this basic bit of civility and friendship is something that actually has to be hard-coded into the game itself -- that I can't trust my friends, but have to have a mechanism in a book to make them talk and listen. I think it's an incredibly socially damaging philosophy. But the fact is that this relationship is not a rule, but a precondition to use *any* game.

But then again, it might be that this rhetoric exists because people are doing different kinds of gaming than I am. I game with friends; people I would almost certainly see in other contexts. But nowadays, it seems that much of the community is devoted to:

1) Games over the internet/VOIP.

2) Games between recruited groups through game stories and networking sites.

3) Games at conventions.

4) Theoretical play, where people plan campaigns they will probably not execute, not as a sideline, but as the main use of the game.

People involved in this kind of thing might need that extra structure and might not be able to assume friendship. But the most popular Type 1 games are fanfic-based RPs with no rules at all, and Type 4 requires no social activity at all, though its adherents may talk about what they think *would* happen.

2-3? Maybe. Spirit of the Century/FATE is designed for this kind of thing. But Serenity is, I suspect, designed for the more traditional group of buddies.

 

[eyebeams]

DC 10 is the difficulty to maintain control of your vehicle after driving over an object the size of a medium-sized crate. You can also make a bootleg 90 degree turn on DC 10.

Actually, it's to *avoid* a size-M crate, which is far less formidable. 90 degree turn? About equivalent to keep from spinning out on ice. I'd say my wife encounters these sorts of things a half dozen to a dozen times a year. Amazingly, nothing happens, especially when you consider the danger of Drive 1 teenage torpedoes of death that must rain destruction down in your campaign.

The way you tried to cover your not knowing d20 driving rules was nicely covered in my reply to your dodge.

I invite you to keep getting the numbers wrong and issuing direct insults. It greatly contributes to your standing in this discussion.

 

[molonel]

Actually, it's to *avoid* a size-M crate, which is far less formidable.

And yet, either way, it's a DC 10 to avoid an object the size of a crate. To avoid a small object in the road? DC 5.

Less formidable or not, both of those are still MORE formidable than driving down the street.

90 degree turn? About equivalent to keep from spinning out on ice. I'd say my wife encounters these sorts of things a half dozen to a dozen times a year. Amazingly, nothing happens, especially when you consider the danger of Drive 1 teenage torpedoes of death that must rain destruction down in your campaign.

If you consider driving at sane speeds and talking to a teenager the equivalent of pulling a bootleg turn while getting shot at, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I invite you to keep getting the numbers wrong and issuing direct insults. It greatly contributes to your standing in this discussion.

I haven't gotten the numbers wrong. You just aren't very clear on what you're talking about, or switching what you meant to something that STILL doesn't apply.

I'd rather talk about game mechanics, personally, and I've demonstrated my ability to be polite and cordial with people who aren't trying to make it sound like they understand roleplaying games better than everyone else in the discussion who disagrees with them.

Arguing like this makes both of us look bad, my friend. The crap on my shirt is the same crap on yours.