Sex and Sexuality in D&D. . .

[Pagan priest]

...
To what extent do people tie sexual behavior to alignment? I ask because I see lots of discussion of brothels and other sexual behavior which according to some bodies of moral teaching (for example Christianity or Natural Law Theory) are not compatible with what we'd call in D&D terms "Good alignment".
...

I hold that sex, and pleasure in general are a good thing, albeit not in the alignment sense of the word. However, engaging in acts that share pleasure in a consensual manner does tend toward a Good alignment. Going back to the Biblical teachings, one reason for the prohibition against certain sex acts (such as homosexuality) was a way to separate the tribes of Israel from the surrounding folks. Other prohibitions are based on the need to determine paternity.

The value of virginity in a prospective bride is based on perceived value, and thus ties into the concept of woman as property. Since women in D&D are generally considered to have all the same rights and privileges as men, this last is rather a bit of a problem.

Outside of the pleasure aspects of sex are the procreative aspects, and that is firmly within the Good alignment... unless you have an area that suffers a problem with over population.

On top of all of this, you also have the effects of race as well. There is no reason to suppose that elves or dwarves feel the same about such matters as humans do.

 

[Nifft]

Bondage is Lawful.
Infidelity is Chaotic.

- - -

IMC, sex happens off camera. I'd like the PCs to be more involved with romance (because it's a great plot device), but I don't feel the urge to RP that stuff much.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Peni Griffin]

In the RHOD game with all the soap opera, one of my players wrote his character background as the result of a teen pregnancy. His mother was a little wild, and realized when he was about 8 that the people she was hanging out with were a bad influence on him, so she parked him on her brother. Ten years later, she's finally settled down, grown a wisdom point, and writes to her son asking him to come to her wedding.

This is their first meeting (bluebooked - I think it's important to bluebook as much one-on-one stuff as you can, so nobody's sitting around twiddling their thumbs on game day):
By the time you can see the roof of a large building with an exterior
ampitheater below, which he points out as your destination, you hear a voice
cry: "Gerik?" Hurrying uphill toward you, pushing her way through the
crowd, dodging traffic, comes a blonde, blue-eyed, 17 CH woman with a build
like Jayne Mansfield. She is dressed simply, but well, in an outfit that
brings out her eyes, and she has roses in her hair. Ivellio smiles for the
first time, and waves at her. She breaks into a run, barrels into Gerik,
and hugs him tight. "Oh, I'd know you anywhere! You've gotten so tall -
and so handsome! I didn't realize you'd be handsome!" She's a couple of
inches shorter than Gerik, and glowingly happy, though a little out of
breath.

We play out the meeting, which happens in front of some of Gerik's friends, one of whom is a little younger than he is, and another of whom is a young female paladin with a crush on him.

Male friend: Dude, your mom is hot!
Gerik: Shut up! That's my mom!
Female friend: I'll hold him down while you thump him if you like. I think your mom is very nice.

Now, I chose Jayne Mansfield because I was remembering her as the woman in the Cross-your-heart bra commercials (We full-figure girls have a problem). This is actually Jayne Russell. So I'm not very good at names. Anyway, the player is young and the name didn't even ring any bells, so he googled her. If you try this, you'll see why his response was "Dude! Gerik's mom is hot!"

I had briefly considered, but discarded as too cruel and too complicated, pulling a similar stunt, only with his future stepsister, but that would have been pushing it.

 

[Mardoc Redcloak]

To what extent do people tie sexual behavior to alignment? I ask because I see lots of discussion of brothels and other sexual behavior which according to some bodies of moral teaching (for example Christianity or Natural Law Theory) are not compatible with what we'd call in D&D terms "Good alignment".

I don't tie sexual behavior to alignment by either of those standards.

It appears that many folks are inclined to say that sexual behavior is morally neutral unless it is outright violent (that is, the behavior is forced upon an unwilling recipient).

I would broaden this somewhat. Behavior can be in a sense "forced upon an unwilling recipient" without it being "outright violent", and in accordance with this principle at least in some cases where "consent" can be claimed (prostitution being one prominent case) there remain serious moral problems.

But, yes, that is the essence.

It occurs to me that one might classify this as a "liberal" or perhaps "late/post modern" view of sexual activity. In some cultures relevant to fantasy gaming, such as medieval Europe or the ancient Hebrews, sexual activity was considered to be very closely tied with a person's moral status, and in fact some bodies of moral teaching to this very day (such as the inheritors of those named examples) still consider one's moral status as greatly impacted by choices in sexual behavior.

If I might press it a bit further, perhaps in many campaigns one might go so far as to say that attitudes about sexuality are "anachronistically liberal".

The second part does not follow from the first, even if we accept your cultural analysis without question (and there is room for dissent there as well.) An action can be morally good or neutral even if society disapproves of it, and an action can be morally evil even if society encourages it. Even if one doubts this principle in the real world, at least as far as the "cosmological" notions of good and evil existing in D&D, it holds--a solar need not check the specific cultural predilections of an area before recognizing what is good and what is evil.

It is perfectly possible, therefore, to portray a society that has a strong opposition to (say) homosexuality while still having same-sex relations not count as immoral.

Of course, especially in the religious context such a contradiction might be more difficult to maintain in a fantasy world, since direct communication with good-aligned outsiders and the various "detect" spells make objective moral standards somewhat more accessible than they are in the real world... but in that case we would have good reason to be anachronistic.

 

[Trench]

First off, kudos to Korgoth for broaching the subject with respect and tact. I don't think there's any reason to scrub that. And as someone who's vast majority of close friends are gay and father is transgendered, it's appreciated.

Having said that, I don't think the sexual acts themselves are the moral barometer when it comes to alignment. Where alignment, I think, DOES come into play is perhaps how one deals with their sexuality. This alignment works in tandem with whatever societal norms of the campaign are.

For instance, a CN homosexual man living in a less than sympathetic campaign would be quite the rebellious libertine. Whereas a LN homosexual man would most likely be one of those terribly unfortunate closeted individuals that struggle with themselves on a daily basis.

 

[Samnell]

To what extent do people tie sexual behavior to alignment? I ask because I see lots of discussion of brothels and other sexual behavior which according to some bodies of moral teaching (for example Christianity or Natural Law Theory) are not compatible with what we'd call in D&D terms "Good alignment".

Those bodies of moral teaching do not exist in my games, even when monotheisms do. So their opinions on the matter are moot to my homebrew. My games are often heavily informed by real-world history, but they are not recreations thereof. This is both a personal preference of mine (I am an adherent of neither of the named bodies of teaching.) and a good modus vivendi for a religiously and politically diverse group to enjoy games together.

As a general issue, consent is the only place where sex is other than morally neutral. ...though now that I've said this I had a neat idea about how mating with celestials to deliberately produce half-celestial offspring might be a moral good. Out of the box, half-celestials are always Good. Hm...

 

[The Grumpy Celt]

I usually game with hairy, farting men. So talk of sex happens, but rarely in-game or in what could be called a tasteful manner.

For every paragraph of serious, insightful, examination that the BoEF contained, it had ten pages of purile juvenile humor.

I disagree - I think it warrents a 4E treatment, sooner or later and that it was pretty good.

Bondage is Lawful.
Infidelity is Chaotic.

What about spanking?

 

[Nifft]

What about spanking?

Sorry, none for hairy, farting men.

-- N

 

[Pagan priest]

I would broaden this somewhat. Behavior can be in a sense "forced upon an unwilling recipient" without it being "outright violent", and in accordance with this principle at least in some cases where "consent" can be claimed (prostitution being one prominent case) there remain serious moral problems.

Wait, is there consent given, or not. While I can agree that coersion into prostitution is certainly a possibility, I feel that in a realm of magic, it is much less likely to occur. With plenty of clerics and paladins sticking their noses into every pimp's business, any person not there willingly would get rescued in short order. Of course, in a predominately evil society, the issue of coersion would be irrelavant to those with any sort of power within said society.

If a person is consenting, freely consenting, then why would prostitution be a moral problem? Or rather, why would it be any more of a moral problem than any other form of sex outside wedlock?

In general, I see wedlock and fidelity in general as issues of law/chaos rather than good/evil. Chastity until marriage is again more of a L/C issue. Coersion, duress or outright force, are issues of good/evil.

Once you start by looking at sexual matters in this manner, the rest falls neatly into place, and you don't have to sit and think out every little variation on human (or humanoid) behavior. Wild orgies? Chaotic. Sado-masochism? IF fully consensual (informed consent) then I would consider it morally neutral. Polygamy? Ethically neutral. Married and cheating? Chaotic. For this, I would consider something to be cheating if any erson involved does not know and consent tot he activities of another, so a man with two wives who also sees a mistress is cheating. Of course, if a man with a wife who says "I'm sick tonight, why don't you go get a prostitute?" is NOT cheating, under this framework.

 

[Korgoth]

I would broaden this somewhat. Behavior can be in a sense "forced upon an unwilling recipient" without it being "outright violent", and in accordance with this principle at least in some cases where "consent" can be claimed (prostitution being one prominent case) there remain serious moral problems.
QUOTE]

Wait, is there consent given, or not. While I can agree that coersion into prostitution is certainly a possibility, I feel that in a realm of magic, it is much less likely to occur. With plenty of clerics and paladins sticking their noses into every pimp's business, any person not there willingly would get rescued in short order. Of course, in a predominately evil society, the issue of coersion would be irrelavant to those with any sort of power within said society.

If a person is consenting, freely consenting, then why would prostitution be a moral problem? Or rather, why would it be any more of a moral problem than any other form of sex outside wedlock?

In general, I see wedlock and fidelity in general as issues of law/chaos rather than good/evil. Chastity until marriage is again more of a L/C issue. Coersion, duress or outright force, are issues of good/evil.

Once you start by looking at sexual matters in this manner, the rest falls neatly into place, and you don't have to sit and think out every little variation on human (or humanoid) behavior. Wild orgies? Chaotic. Sado-masochism? IF fully consensual (informed consent) then I would consider it morally neutral. Polygamy? Ethically neutral. Married and cheating? Chaotic. For this, I would consider something to be cheating if any erson involved does not know and consent tot he activities of another, so a man with two wives who also sees a mistress is cheating. Of course, if a man with a wife who says "I'm sick tonight, why don't you go get a prostitute?" is NOT cheating, under this framework.

I see it as a Good/Evil issue. "Lawful" vs. "Chaotic", in the 9-part alignment system anyway, is more about methodology. But I consider sexual behavior as a moral object. And so I would put chastity, marital fidelity and fecundity on the side of Good, and promiscuous and sterile behavior on the side of Evil (though I think that people with Neutral or even Good alignments sometimes, or even habitually, commit objectively Evil acts... it's just that there are mitigating factors). I know that opinion might irritate some folks, but since you've taken the lead here I feel safe in responding with my own estimation. My estimation, while linked to a real world body of theology, is also something I consider to be rooted in "natural law" and so should apply to fantasy worlds just as well as to the real world.

However, as with all alignment issues, I think the particulars of it kind of have to vary with the individual DM. Alignments are so open to interpretation that you get wide variance and there's no way around it: I have seen some DMs who think that slaying helpless captives who happen to be Evil is a Good act; even one who thought that slaying baby Hobgoblins was Lawful Good. Myself, I find those acts entirely Evil. However, a player has to sort of "go with the flow" when it comes to alignment adjudications... you can still have your character abstain from behavior you don't like but that the DM thinks is Good and still play a Good character (I should think).

I tend to avoid sexual issues when I run games, though. If PCs did insist on frequenting brothels they may eventually find themselves with a new alignment, however.