Sexism in D&D and on ENWorld (now with SOLUTIONS!)

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Also, why on earth did that take three posts.
Inefficient use of language? Questionable instincts for metaphor?

Anyhow shil... so far you've focused on representation, let's talk about characterization. What if a male DM creates plenty of female NPC's, but they all seem like men in drag? --this is common problem in adventure stories since adventure stories tend to showcase certain stereotypically male behaviors, such as the 'hitting first and discussing later, if at all'.

(note that I tend to include characters in various kinds drag in my D&D campaigns... that can't be accidental, can it?).

Is it enough to include female characters? Don't we have to write them well, too? At least 'well enough'? And what does 'well enough' look like -- one example would be Kara Thrace from nBSG, but I'm hesitant to try and explain how that character works... she kinda shouldn't.

(this could explain why create more male characters --it's not that I so confident in my ability to write them, but I'm less concerned about writing men as painful caricatures -- in fact, one might argue that's one of my goals...).
 
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Inefficient use of language? Questionable instincts for metaphor?

Anyhow shil... so far you've focused on representation, let's talk about characterization. What if a male DM creates plenty of female NPC's, but they all seem like men in drag? --this is common problem in adventure stories since adventure stories tend to showcase certain stereotypically male behaviors, such as the 'hitting first and discussing later, if at all'.

I think people worry about this more than they should. Having female characters behave exactly like male characters can mean ignoring certain nuances of male/female relations, but overall it's not a big deal. Certainly it beats hell out of female NPCs (or PCs) as obnoxious stereotypes or adolescent sex fantasies.
 


However, this assumes that the migrant population remains fertile in its new territory. It also assumes the migrants do not lose population - through death or other means - just as fast as they gain it.

In human terms, if an immigrant population has a high birth rate, but 90% of its offspring assimilate into the slower-breeding native culture, it isn't going to displace that native culture (although it may eventually come to dominate the gene pool).

All true, and several recent immigrant populations here in the UK have followed this path, assimilating into the host culture over time.
 

Inefficient use of language? Questionable instincts for metaphor?

:D

Anyhow shil... so far you've focused on representation, let's talk about characterization. What if a male DM creates plenty of female NPC's, but they all seem like men in drag? --this is common problem in adventure stories since adventure stories tend to showcase certain stereotypically male behaviors, such as the 'hitting first and discussing later, if at all'.

Good question. It's something I've considered earlier, but I figured I'd consider it for a bit so I didn't respond immediately when I saw your post yesterday (yesterday in India, that is).

(note that I tend to include characters in various kinds drag in my D&D campaigns... that can't be accidental, can it?).

Really? I thought it was utterly, purely coincidental. Really ;)

Is it enough to include female characters? Don't we have to write them well, too? At least 'well enough'?And what does 'well enough' look like -- one example would be Kara Thrace from nBSG, but I'm hesitant to try and explain how that character works... she kinda shouldn't.

(this could explain why create more male characters --it's not that I so confident in my ability to write them, but I'm less concerned about writing men as painful caricatures -- in fact, one might argue that's one of my goals...).

My thought on it is that writing female characters well would be a definite bonus, but that's not something which I think of as a necessity. I should add that I think the same for male characters as well. Most people don't write/roleplay characters better than adequately, and I think that's okay. I've seen lots of men roleplay men poorly (i.e. using stereotypes and not very creatively), just as I've seen women roleplay women poorly. So I'd emphasize representation first, with good characterization being a second (and preferable, but not required) element. After all, if you don't have representation you can't have characterization at all, and if you have a good deal of representation then you have a better chance of achieving at least some good characterization.

Which brings me to the question of what good characterization means - and I'll use your example of Kara Thrace and BSG in general, which is my personal high point among TV shows for good female characterization. And I think it also provides a good example of the advantages of representation. Kara Thrace, I think, would be an example of lousy characterization if she appeared in, say, the new Star Trek movie. Why? Because she would be the only major female character there and would stick out as a woman who's written using mostly conventionally masculine traits (and raise the question of whether the writer(s) can write a woman differently than they can write men). But in BSG she works, since she's not the only major female character. You also have Laura Roslin, multiple characters played by Grace Park, Dualla, multiple characters played by Tricia Helfer, Cally, multiple characters played by Lucy Lawless, etc. And lots of minor female characters. Even if these characters were not well-written and well-acted, as most are, their very presence and the fact that they differ from each other would make Kara Thrace acceptable, since "she who has masculine traits" becomes only one among an entire gamut of female characters. This works with both genders, of course. Saul Tigh is largely a stereotype. But he works since he's not the only man on the show. Characterization works very well on BSG, but representation is a hugely important factor therein.

As an addendum, I'll add something about how I think writing a character well can work, as done by BSG. Give the character motivation(s), strength(s), weakness(es), and don't worry about whether these are stereotypically masculine or feminine. And then consider a couple of places where the character's gender might affect things, and add it in. Voila! The majority of BSG's characters could work just fine if you changed their sex. I could totally buy Kara as male, Adama (either of them) as female, Helo as female, Roslin as male, etc. And that actually makes them better and more interesting characters, in my estimation, since they are all mediated somewhat by their gender but not defined by it.

In short, I think more equitable representation is a necessary first step and not only enables but is absolutely necessary for good characterization (which is a bonus, but not as important).

I think people worry about this more than they should. Having female characters behave exactly like male characters can mean ignoring certain nuances of male/female relations, but overall it's not a big deal. Certainly it beats hell out of female NPCs (or PCs) as obnoxious stereotypes or adolescent sex fantasies.

Agreed. I have, unsurprisingly, certain issues with people writing females (or males, for that matter) as "obnoxious stereotypes or adolescent sex fantasies", but as long as one avoids that I'm not going to fault someone running a D&D campaign or a PC for not writing a character as a compelling and well-rounded example of their gender.
 

Adding on to what shilsen mentioned about characterization, a trap that many male-dominated creative and collaborative efforts (like TV, film, video games, home-brewed campaigns, select table-top RPG material itself) fall into is not treating female characters as human beings first. It's not necessarily an intentional thing, but it's definitely problematic and leads to sexist/misogynistic scenarios. Character motivations, for example, tend to be highly gendered - writers often put an incrediblely strong emphasis on female characters' interest in children, family, and romance, making it a primary concern. But for the average person, male or female, these things are often secondary. I, a female, would love to be married one day (though I couldn't care less about my existing family or having babies). But my primary motivations in life are to get a Ph.D., get published, and travel. It's something I share in common with plenty of other human beings, whether they have ladyparts or boybits. I haaaaate that when females aren't presented as attention-craving, baby wanting harpies, they're either sexualized (i.e. the recent GI Joe movie), or thought of as being "manly".

Which brings me to the men-in-drag thing. Sort of, anyway. I find the term a bit... reductionist? As in it suggests that certain characteristics are inherently masculine, something I disagree with to a large extent. (According to the evo-psych folks on here, perhaps I'm just an ignorant lady?) The stereotypical adventurer does what? S/he is sometimes diplomatic, more often impulsive, kills anything evil (and sometimes not so evil) without much empathy, drinks ale and has sex. Both the average man and average female aren't going around and killing gnolls, but umm... females and males can both be rational, impulsive, empathetic, uncaring, drinkers, and have lots of sex. Anyway, not that I'm offended by the "men-in-drag" term or someone using it, but by that definition a lot of the female heroines I enjoy (mostly from recent urban fantasy novels, which tends to feature lots and lots of sex) - who, not so incidentally, are written by women - and most of the characters I create or think up are men-in-drag. And... no. That's not it.

IMO, most characteristics are neither inherently feminine nor masculine. Rather, certain characteristics are better suited for a particular activity. A D&D adventurer generally has to kill things and take the loot, along with leading a rough-and-tumble life: they may be a bit hard, or flippant about killing, or a variety of other things. In the UF books I read, the female characters are bounty hunters or involved with some official military, investigative, or civic, police-ish duties, so they have to be tough, intelligent and able to kill or disarm various threats. In something like BSG, the male and female characters alike - well, if they're soldiers, officers, pilots, etc. - have to be ready and able to defend themselves.

So... umm... as shilsen said, treat characters as characters first, and then figure out the way their gender is important. If at all. Finding ways to flesh out characters is most important (well, again, IMO), like making a cool bounty hunter a little softer by writing now and then about his/her love for cooking and gardening. Or making them like kittens and cats a whole lot (hello, Hellboy). Actually, make everyone like cats. That just shows good taste.
 

A nice female characterization using stereotypes and rejecting them example might be Zoë Washburn from Firefly, I just notice.

She is a soldier and that foremost. If we'd use stereotypes, it's more that her husband, Wash, fulfills the "weaker partner" part.
But I remember there is a scence in the movie where they talk about having kids - She wants them, and Wash doesn't. Here, the stereotypes are more typical. Wash bascially has the usual stereotype male counterarguments ("not now, not the right time"). But she points out - in a manner I think that is not stereotypical for any specific gender at all, I think (paraphrasing): "I am not so afraid of losing something that I won't have it."

Overall, the stereotypes are kinda in use - but often subverted, but sometimes also used straight - and that basically makes the character a lot more nuanced and "real" - they are not just male or female. They are humans with their own personality, informed by the experiences of their life.

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In regards to "nature vs nuture" - we might be able to rationalize or explain behavior based on arguments about nature or evolution, but that doesn't make the acceptable or good behavior. Evolution is a natural process, not a moral authority.
 

In regards to "nature vs nuture" - we might be able to rationalize or explain behavior based on arguments about nature or evolution, but that doesn't make the acceptable or good behavior. Evolution is a natural process, not a moral authority.

Evolution has no moral content - but anti-Natural Selection behaviour, such as women not having children, means your line dies out. This usually means that the space it occupied is taken by another line which is propagating more successfully.

I watched all of BSG and I always thought it weird that everything about the portrayed human society indicated it was on the way out, as surely as the Easter Islanders, or the Tasmanians after European contact/invasion. It looks like a classic 'Collapse' society, as much from its internal dynamics typified by the interpersonal dynamics portrayed onscreen as from the external Cylon threat. A stressed society must 'get tough or die' - the BSG humans were clearly taking the latter route. Yet somehow it never actually finishes dying off. I guess this was a literal deus ex machina; God was keeping the humans going so they could go screw up yet another planet... ;)
 

Evolution has no moral content - but anti-Natural Selection behaviour, such as women not having children, means your line dies out. This usually means that the space it occupied is taken by another line which is propagating more successfully.
Then I might add:
Evolution doesn't have a natural end goal.
Just because something worked (repeatedly) in the past and was a trait for survival doesn't mean it will stay one. The dinosaurs were a result of evolution, but changes in their environment made them unable to survive. Humans actively change their environment a lot, and it might turn out that traits that were good are no longer. We can't assume that behavior that might have been great for a cavemen or a hunter-gatherer is still good for us now. Maybe after another 1,000 years of evolution, we'll see that.

And especially regarding BSG. Just because we can survive better if we become barbarians doesn't mean it's moral to do so. Of course our sense of "morals" probably is a result of evolution, too, but I suppose that's just another example on how evolution itself is not moral. In a tough situation, morals can suddenly become a liability for survival. But if we argue from a moral point of view, then what is good for survival is not always morally good.
 

But if we argue from a moral point of view, then what is good for survival is not always morally good.

Then morality is anti-adaptive behaviour, morality will be selected against, and over time moral lines & populations will tend to die out and be replaced by less moral ones.

Of course morals are memes not genes, and like diseases, memes can jump from one population to another. Morality may be leading to population X dying off, but if population Y can be persuaded to accept the morality it may not replace X; and Y may eventually die off also.

Still, any morality that kills its hosts too quickly (eg Heaven's Gate cult) will indeed tend to die off.
 

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