Sexism in your campaign settings

[Numion]

After hearing that there was no slavery in this game, because of one player, I got upset (I was young at the time, forgive me.) I had wanted to play in that game, but found it less fun without the reality of slavery. I didn't join the game, but played with the GM in another game, and that was cool. I grew out of the upset I felt, but I still wouldn't play in a game that had things I didn't like in it, be they concepts or people.

Slavery that important, huh? Are your characters mass consumers of slaves or what? Just curious .. I mean we've had slaves in our games, but mostly as being freed by the PCs, kind of like prisoners. They're just "in the background". Do your characters usually trade them or what?

 

[hong]

Slavery that important, huh? Are your characters mass consumers of slaves or what? Just curious .. I mean we've had slaves in our games, but mostly as being freed by the PCs, kind of like prisoners. They're just "in the background". Do your characters usually trade them or what?

It's the fantasy equivalent of a CCG!


Hong "now you gots your black slaves, your white slaves, your red slaves, your green slaves and your blue slaves..." Ooi

 

[Kemrain]

Slavery that important, huh? Are your characters mass consumers of slaves or what? Just curious .. I mean we've had slaves in our games, but mostly as being freed by the PCs, kind of like prisoners. They're just "in the background". Do your characters usually trade them or what?

Not like that. I'm against slavery, and most all of my characters are too. Those that aren't against it just don't care. I wasn't saying that I needed slavery to be happy, I was trying to say that a world completely devoid of slavery is so contrived that it breaks all sense of realism for me. A world in which slavery isn't just "not mentioned," but completely absent, boggles my mind.

Besides... The undead make FAR better laborers than living slaves. You save on food, and never have to rest them!

- Kemrain the Diabolic.

 

[StalkingBlue]

I'm one of S'mon's two players who are having problems with sexism in his game.

I've always worked in male-dominated fields in real life, and as it happens my leisure interests also largely involve activities in which I meet more men than women. I'm at ease dealing with men in work and personal life, half of my close personal friends are men. Generally speaking I'm pretty well able to conquer my place and hold it. Unfortunately that isn't true in S'mon's game, at least to my perception. After playing in his campaign for almost a year, I still feel invisible at his table a lot of the time - and it's getting worse, not better.

Ironically enough I also run my Midnight game for a subset of the same players. I'm comfortable with the players at my own table, but feel more and more inhibited at S'mon's table as time passes.

S'mon's game is all about war and, as PCs grow, increasingly about power politics. Unfortunately, as S'mon has said, in our campaign area there is a strong social bias against both women and spellcasters, in favour of male melee warriors with big weapons.

S'mon runs wonderful combat challenges that I love to play in. (Those of you who have read some of my Midnight threads may know I run a pretty combat-heavy game myself.) I'd like us to have much more impressive party tactics than we currently have, but even lacking that I enjoy our battles. Combat tactics is the one area in S'mon's game where I can hold my own. I fight an uphill battle every single time to be heard at the table, but I kinda manage.

Politics are another matter because of the palpable gender bias in the game. I should probably switch to playing a male with a Big Sword, which I've done occasionally in other games and enjoyed it - but I don't want to be forced into it by the bias of the world. OTOH I'm also getting tired of eternally struggling against that underlying bias with my current female PC - it feels almost like being enwrapped in a thick cottonwool cocoon.

The worst thing is that it feels to me as if the gender bias from the world echoes out into the gaming group. The same guys who have no problem gathering what I say and accepting my authority in the game I run, will happily and consistently ignore me at S'mon's table. I've fought hard and long to find a place in the game that I can enjoy (I love S'mon's combats, I love roleplaying with him in other games where I don't feel so inhibited), but I'm getting pretty frustrated and am close to giving up.

As S'mon has said, his homebrew world is many years old, and his current campaign had already been running for years (with changing players) at the time I joined. Not sure how good the chances are of changing things at this stage, but from reading this thread I'm getting the impression that S'mon would like to find a solution that would remove the frustration for me and the other female player - so if any of you have suggestions to help with that, that would sure be great.


Moving to another area that has less or no gender bias (if there are such areas in the game world) is not an option btw: all the PCs, currently 15th level, have more or less valuable connections in the region, both the male melee PCs also already hold positions of power - one is a king, the other the commander of the local duchy's armies.

 

[Mishihari Lord]

I'm one of S'mon's two players who are having problems with sexism in his game.

...

The worst thing is that it feels to me as if the gender bias from the world echoes out into the gaming group. The same guys who have no problem gathering what I say and accepting my authority in the game I run, will happily and consistently ignore me at S'mon's table.

...

To me, this sounds like the greater part of the problem. If the other PCs were backing your character up and supporting her in political and social situations, she would be able to exert a greater influence in these situations and you probably wouldn't feel so frustrated. For example, if a point you made was ignored by a male NPC, a fellow PC could back you up with something like "Yes, StalkingBlue has a good point, an alliance with XYZ would be very beneficial, what do you say to that?"

I don't blame you for feeling frustrated. It would be no fun at all to be left out of the action when the game is moving more into politics and role-playing. It would seem reasonable that after having adventured with the group for as long as she has, your PC would have earned sufficient repect from her companions that they would back her up in these situations, whatever their built-in gameworld bias.

Perhaps if you explained to the other players why you felt frustrated and how they could help you out you could enjoy the game more. Good luck.

 

[Celtavian]

re

Stalking Blue,

I think you should kick one of the male PC's asses. They are playing pig-headed stubborn men used to thinking "Bah...we no want to listen to woman." The next time they don't listen to you, slap the guy and challenge him to a fight. Even if the guy wins, he probably won't kill you and will have to respect your prowess in battle.

Put yourself in a your character's place. What would you do to garner respect from a group of pig-headed males who only respect strength and combat power? Maybe even have S'mon set up an adventure where some fearsome creature such as a giant has been plaguing the lands and no male warrior has yet been able to defeat it. Then you head out there and take it out.

There must be some constructive way in which you can role-play asserting your power as a female in a male warrior society. Don't take any lip off those pig-headed males.

 

[mythago]

Well, S'mon, my solution to this issue would be that you can either switch from playing in that setting to a different one (and you can certainly have fantasy settings where there is gender equality: either one where its an unrealistic setting and just accepted that way, or one that is fantasy but not "medieval european" fantasy)

Now this is just silly. We can get rid of the Black Death, the one Church, the lack of magic, throw in elves and dwarves and real dragons, and let adventurers wander around subject no king--but allowing females to be treated as more or less equal? Now you go too far!

I mean, c'mon.

I agree with the other replies to StalkingBlue. A macho warrior society is not a problem where macho female warrior PCs are happily welcomed by the other PCs. ("She's not like those other soft women!") When your GM and fellow players are so busy male-bonding with one another that you can't get a word in edgewise, it's time to either get out the bronzewood cluestick, or move on.

 

[mythago]

Separate post because it's a separate issue:

A lot of campaigns are sexist for the same reason they are racist or whatever--not because the GM is a jerk, but because the GM is unimaginative. So may people, when creating a world, just assume that a world is vaguely sometime-in-the-middle-ages Europe, everybody's white, most of the NPCs are male, and you don't see many people or things outside of the GM's own experience and gaming background. When you do, those things are likely to be very two-dimensional: yes, there is a token Kush kingdom of jungle-dwelling warriors, and there's the island-nation of Lysboz where frowny Amazon warriors keep men in submission... *yawn*

There's a huge, huge amount of room between that kind of run-of-the-mill world and a carefully multicultural pseudo-Utopia. Perhaps nobody ever thought of slavery because, duh, we have a caste of Untouchables to do that work, or warforged, and they don't count. Women warriors? Tons of 'em, that's the only other life path for a childless widow who doesn't want to be killed and buried with her husband. And everybody knows that roguery is a man's job. Racism? Nobody cares what color your skin is, because we all know that it's whether you're from one of the right families. If you didn't descend from one of the Twelve, gods help you.

Etcetera. There are so many other ways to play out power struggles and social tensions without slipping into "well, I don't know any girls, so I don't have any girl NPCs other than the sultry evil drow cleric who tries to seduce the party."

 

[RPGgirl]

I play at a table with three marines and my husband, run by another marine. I am the only female, so I can sympathize with your plight. For what its worth, here are my suggestions ...

First, as the female player, make sure you are not being ignored or discounted because your ideas are bad. I played in a party with all neutral/neutral evil characters except one lawful good paladin. He complained about not being listenned to, but that was because his answers and ideas went against the party and frankly were just plain bad.

Second, next time you feel you are being ignored, try something like, "No wait! How about this?" Yes, it will stop the flow of the game for a second, but if your ideas are good, eventually the other players will look for your input.

Third, I see this as a problem, most readily solved by the DM. As the master of his universe, he is completely free to add little exceptions and caveats to the way things work. Yes, the society is male dominated, and wary of casters, but how about adding in the element that there is this female caster that has earned renown and respect. When she talks, everyone listens. You maintain the integrity of the setting, while still provided for the female players.

Lastly, as a DM, what I often do when I notice a player is not getting enough floor time, I change my style of role playing a bit. I first enforce an unwritten rule, where you have to be quiet when no one is talking to you (a simple shhh works well against an offending party). Then I go around the table and give everyone their chance to say something, offer up ideas, etc. without being interrupted. At first, it can have a slightly mechanical feel and can be taxing on the DM, but it does deliver the implicit message to all players that the DM is not playing favorites and their input is appreciated.

ANyway, I hope one of these suggestions helps.

 

[Nisarg]

Now this is just silly. We can get rid of the Black Death, the one Church, the lack of magic, throw in elves and dwarves and real dragons, and let adventurers wander around subject no king--but allowing females to be treated as more or less equal? Now you go too far!

I mean, c'mon.

Actually, most of those other things are something of an issue to me too. If you have magic in a medieval european fantasy setting, then you should show that magic has some pretty massive consequences. If you have multiple religion, that changes a great many things too. If you have elves and dwarves and such, then you'd better have some good explanation of how racial harmonics work on your world.

In other words, you will note in my original post I did say you could just choose to be UNrealistic. Because, if you have a world that looks on the surface just like medieval France or England, only with magic, multiple gods that grant real spells, demihumans, and racial and gender equality, and yet NONE of these things actually change anything in the society to make it NOT like medieval europe, you are playing in a highly unrealistic world. And by realistic here, i mean a credible simulation of social consequences.

Nisarg