Shadow as a "power source"?

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Perhaps there is a way of reconciling both views.

Yes, Dark is simply the absence of Light. But what is Light?

Light is all that is good. It brings life, it allows vision - think of expressions like "see the light" and "stroke of brilliance" litterally.

Dark is its opposite. It is what exists when light isn't there. So, it is all the evil and fear and ignorance that exists without Light.

It is exactly what the heroes need to bring Light to banish. It is THE Antithesis.

 

[Rechan]

There's a certain... forcefulness to get Therise to agree to using Shadow. Chill folks - if Therise doesn't want them she doesn't have to agree with the Shadow power source.

 

[Walking Dad]

But she stated in the OP that she wanted the input... it is just that there isn't much agreement with her point of view. Most posts are actually samples to make 'shadow as a power source' understandable or different ways to incorporate the shadow-labeled material. No one will go to her game and force her to use it.

 

[Therise]

Er... before this goes down a path of assumptions that aren't what I'd intended to imply (if I did), let me mention again that I'm not going to be limiting any mechanics of shadow-oriented spells or abilities in my game. I'm just going to be using a very, very different fluff explanation as to how they work, and a different cosmology that doesn't include the shadowfell or feywild as written in 4E core.

Also, I have read all of the replies to my OP, and I am grateful for all of them. They've been particularly helpful in my gaining a better understanding of 4E cosmology as written, and in turn they've very definitely helped me to decide what elements I want to use in the further development of my part-homebrew and part-Forgotten Realms game for the group I'm with. I feel like I have a much better idea of the deeper implications of 4E core cosmology, because of everyone here who took the time to reply. And I don't think I've really disagreed with anyone, I just mentioned how I didn't really much like the implications.

Now, while I won't be using the shadowfell or feywild from 4E in my setting, it's likely that I will play in at least one person's game who is using a mostly unaltered 4E cosmology for their game. So in many ways, this exploration and discussion of shadow as a power source has been helpful in that way also. I'll better understand his game, and at the same time have my own "take" for my world too. Bear in mind, it's been ages and ages since I've played in any setting other than a (mostly 1E-derived, with bits of 2E and 3E) Forgotten Realms. My prior experience was 1E Greyhawk (pre-Wars). This new 4E cosmology is quite different, and much much darker than what I've been used to playing over these past 20-some years.

So if anyone thinks I'm being intentionally... uhm... resistant or stubborn or something along those lines, or of anyone thinks I'm just shooting people down after you've all given some excellent points for me to ponder... well, that's definitely not the case. I'm making a choice not to go with two big, huge, world-defining elements in the game I run. That's just a choice for flavor and "fluff" as it were, and there's no intent to limit any options on shadowy-flavored character crunch goodness for my players. But I will be going with a different cosmology to "shake things up" by going more old school on the fluff. Just a DMing choice, really.... at least that's my perspective. *shrug*

 

[the Jester]

If you are looking for interesting ways to reflavor shadow as a power source, it could be something like a sentient shadow-entity somewhere that is sleeping, where shadow powers draw on its strength.

Alternatively, you could flavor it as "Dream" powered (sometimes nightmares). Change necrotic damage to psychic when it appears and hey presto!

 

[Therise]

If you are looking for interesting ways to reflavor shadow as a power source, it could be something like a sentient shadow-entity somewhere that is sleeping, where shadow powers draw on its strength.

Alternatively, you could flavor it as "Dream" powered (sometimes nightmares). Change necrotic damage to psychic when it appears and hey presto!

Definite possibilities!

I think a major part of what I dislike about shadow in 4E is that it unites too many elements/things/monsters/ spells that can be (and previously were) different things. Shadow actually seems less mysterious and scary to me when anything shadow-oriented, or with that descriptor, all have their source in the shadowfell.

The fear of things in the dark, to my way of thinking, should be that many evil things lurk in the dark... some are of the Abyss, some are perhaps Far Realm, some are nefarious magics, but they could all come from entirely different sources. Vampires (often) classically are presented as rejecting the divine. Nightmares might come from dark faerie, alien aboleth, dark gods, or perhaps sent as divine forewarnings. With a separate (unfused) plane of negative energy, certain monsters that are "like" Far Realms beings could originate there instead.

Additionally, there are some good things about shadow that are fun and interesting but lose some of their appeal (IMO) when all this stuff is fused into a single source and automatically linked to evil. Not all things in the dark are evil, or tied to death and the dead. I guess I'm truly old school in the sense that I want to have a world where the players don't know all the rules and what's really going on. Too much metagame knowledge of the cosmology can be bad at level one, I think.

If anything, by rejecting two big parts of the cosmology I'm trying hard to keep that cultural sense of mystique around the things attributed to shadow (and fey). I do love all of the spooky/dark things created for the game, I'm just not really wanting them to be "united" under a single banner, so to speak.

 

[Viking Bastard]

I don't really see Shadow originating from the Shadowfell, exactly, as much as the Shadowfell being drenched in the stuff. It's just the closest source to draw from for the denizens of the World. Shadow could, for instance, been seen as the corrupting influence of the Splinter of Evil, or it could emanate from the Negative Energy sub-plane in the Elemental Chaos.

I kind of like the idea of there being Elemental Poles in the Elemental Chaos. Travel "south" towards the Positive Pole, or "north" towards the Negative Pole; or alternatively, the Elemental Poles (Earth, Air, Water & Fire) are in the Elemental Chaos, while the Energy Poles (Positive & Negative) are in the Astral Sea (perhaps with the Living Gate at the exact multidimensional mid-point between them).

The division of power sources as described by the rules may just be a simplification of the much more complex metaphysics that govern the world, perhaps devised by an ancient civilization, or by a popular cosmologist whose work cemented the common person's ideas about the multiverse.

People may talk of "Shadow", but they're actually talking about of variety of things lumped together, Negative Energy among them.

 

[Therise]

I don't really see Shadow originating from the Shadowfell, exactly, as much as the Shadowfell being drenched in the stuff. It's just the closest source to draw from for the denizens of the World. Shadow could, for instance, been seen as the corrupting influence of the Splinter of Evil, or it could emanate from the Negative Energy sub-plane in the Elemental Chaos.

I kind of like the idea of there being Elemental Poles in the Elemental Chaos. Travel "south" towards the Positive Pole, or "north" towards the Negative Pole; or alternatively, the Elemental Poles (Earth, Air, Water & Fire) are in the Elemental Chaos, while the Energy Poles (Positive & Negative) are in the Astral Sea (perhaps with the Living Gate at the exact multidimensional mid-point between them).

The division of power sources as described by the rules may just be a simplification of the much more complex metaphysics that govern the world, perhaps devised by an ancient civilization, or by a popular cosmologist whose work cemented the common person's ideas about the multiverse.

People may talk of "Shadow", but they're actually talking about of variety of things lumped together, Negative Energy among them.

Indeed, this is more along the lines of what I want to go with, thematically and in actuality for my cosmology. I want there to be a lot of suppositions, old beliefs, mistaken beliefs, and a correct belief thrown in here and there... but the various cultures (largely commoners) won't really know if they're "right" and even the players won't be able to make assumptions about various myths and mythological elements... until they come face to face with that "reality" in game.

And even then, what they see and what their senses tell them, might not reveal a deeper understanding of the workings of their cosmology.

 

[DracoSuave]

But Shadow (the power source) isn't the not-Light. The Natural World itself is still very 'dark' and the metaphysical concept of 'light' is absent from most of it.

Shadow is a substance, a very specific substance. It's a dark substance that imitates, creates warped versions of reality, and seeks to replace life.

Think of it like the Lying Darkness from L5R... it's an active force that seeks to supplant reality. Mages use one aspect of it to create 'pseudo-reality' with physical Shadow (Nethermancy/Shadow Magic), and the other aspect to create replacements to life (Necromancy).

Undead isn't solely the province of shadow either... Orcus, the demon prince of Undead, is elemental. Vecna gives a lot of power over the undead... that which serves him directly might be immortal origin. Most common undead are natural origin... sometimes all it takes is a lot of evil of any sort.

You have four different classes of undead... elemental charged undead serving a demon prince; the divine-created servants of gods; the random coincidental undead of the natural world... but the shadow creates a different sort... hungry sorts that seek to feed, replace, supplant... the sort that sits in the shadow of life itself watching, waiting.

There's a lot of room in 'undead' for a lot of different times of undead.

 

[Incenjucar]

It's also worth keeping in mind that shadow, while inherently sinister and cynical, is not inherently evil. The Shadowfell acts as a prison for those things too broken for the World. Shadows provide protection to the small and weak, and who must hide from the powerful. Shadows allow those unhappy things that must be done for the greater good, and calls back those which stray too far from that path.