Shadow Conjuration and non-offensive spells

[Beholder Bob]

"You create the effect and you know it's an illusion. I think that's enough to say, that you have proof that it isn't real."

This is an assumption, not something from the rules. One could just as easily assume that one can choose to believe and interact with it as real. That since the caster is creating it in his mind he is wholly immersed in it as its creator and can treat it as real. This view is also not stated in the book, though the text of 2 illusion spells support this view:

1) the phantasmal killer is a direct example of the caster of an illusion being effected by that illusion - so although he casts it, he does not automatically ignore/disbelieve.

2) "Any creature that interacts with the conjured object, force, or creature can make a Will save to recognize its true nature." This is an excerpt from shadow conjuration - the 2nd paragraph, though I added the underline. This implies that any creature that interacts with the shadow conjure item/effect can choose to accept/interact with it as a real item. I could create a bridge (with minor creation) over a pit and walk across it, rather then a % chance to avoiding falling into that pit. I choose to accept the reality of the bridge.


BB

 

[Thanee]

Well, there is no rule, that specifically says, that you know, if a spell you cast is an illusion, but that's pretty obvious, really. I would be a bit worried, if I didn't know what spells I learned, prepared and cast.

There is a rule, which states, that if you have incontrovertible proof, that something isn't real, there is no save necessary. Knowing that something is an illusion, because you cast the spell, that created it, is proof enough for me.

If there is no save necessary, you cannot deliberately fail it.

Bye
Thanee

 

[rangerjohn]

What is your answer to self hypnosis? You know you are the one doing the hypnnosis, this does not stop it from working. The mind and its belief systems are complicated and strong mechanisms.

 

[Thanee]

Well, let's stay with illusions that are not purely in the mind for now.
Like, hmm... Illusion (shadow) spells!

And what has self-hypnosis to do with casting illusions?

Bye
Thanee

 

[rangerjohn]

Just the fact that belief is an incredible thing. If you believe you are able to do something, you are not physically capable of, you may do it. You may injure yourself in the attempt, but you may succeed. The discussion was around belief, you said you couldn't believe your own illusions. In the real world we call such individuals delusional. In the game thier belief would empower the magic, just as an opponents mind would cause thier skin to blister from a shadow fireball. There is also the fact that these are not just illusions, but phantasms from the plane of Shadow. Now Phantasmal Steed is a conundrum, its not real to begin with.

 

[Thanee]

I'm not talking about believing or not believing, I am talking about knowing that it is not real. The rest is in the rules.

A mentally deranged person might maybe believe in their own illusions, but a sane one would not (IMHO).

Phantom Steed is very real. It's just not a real horse.

Bye
Thanee

P.S. And belief cannot make you do stuff you are not physically capable of, it's just that you normally are not able to do everything, which you are physically capable of. Belief can push you to your limit in a way.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Oh, c'mon. That's completely silly. The caster knows that it isn't real. He needs no saving throw. You cannot voluntarily fail a saving throw, if there is none.

It's entirely possible for you to let yourself believe in something that you 'know' isn't real.

By the logic, that a spellcaster knows what spells he casts.

What if he's learnt from his master that shadow conjuration is just an all-purpose spell? He won't know that it's illusory.

You can fail saves versus spells willingly. Otherwise all those "will (harmless)" spells like displacement or airwalk or the like will suck, because people have to roll saves against them...

 

[Thanee]

What if he's learnt from his master that shadow conjuration is just an all-purpose spell? He won't know that it's illusory.

That is the standard spellcaster? Someone who doesn't know what the spells are, that he casts?

You can fail saves versus spells willingly. Otherwise all those "will (harmless)" spells like displacement or airwalk or the like will suck, because people have to roll saves against them...

See above. No save necessary means to me, there is no choice.

It might also be read like you don't have to make the save, but if you want to you can (and voluntarily fail), but I really find that highly questionable.

I highly doubt, that this is intended.

But hey, it's just my opinion on the matter, don't forget that...

Bye
Thanee

 

[the Jester]

Well, it's not 3e, but there was a 2e spell where the caster had to make his save in order to believe in the illusion he cast (um, it was called, er... Solipsism, I think? -from the Tome of Magic anyway) and gain the benefits of it.

Following the rule of precedence, that's how I'd do it- he certainly doesn't automatically believe in his shadow mount or whatever, but I'd let him make a save.

 

[Christian]

If casters don't have to roll saves, but automatically disbelieve their own illusions, then Shadow Evocation becomes a much more useful spell. (I target the Shadow Fireball 5' away from my location!)

'Disbelief' is a technical term in the rules, referring to a successful save against a spell with a 'Will (disbelief)' entry on the Saving Throw line. There's nothing to indicate that casters automatically make their save, get the choice to fail, or anything else (even a save bonus!). Evidently, a caster can be fooled by his own Silent Image.

My ruling would be that a caster automatically saves against his own figments, but has to roll a saving throw (which can be voluntarily failed) against his own phantasms and shadows. (Don't ask me why a wizard would target himself with a phantasm ...) If he chooses to make a roll, I'd give him the +4 that someone who'd been told the phantasm/shadow was false, even if nobody tells him. He's got a real good clue, after all.

I'm very comfortable with this ruling for figments and phantasms. (Figments can't actually affect anything, and phantasms are mind-affecting, so I can accept that they can drive the memory of the spellcasting out of the caster's head.) Shadows are definitely a weird case ... I'd say that voluntarily failing the save is a case of 'I make a point of believing six impossible things before breakfast', but I don't know what rolling and failing would be ...