Shadow Races up!!!

[Aegeri]

Yeah, that seems to be the intended shadow theme. Small disadvantages, and good advantages to make up for it.

What advantages does the shade have again?

The Vryloka is good in spite of its disadvantage, but you can remove the disadvantage and it's no more powerful than any other race. It makes me question the need for it in the first place.

 

[Marshall]

I've still gotta wonder why the Drows racial got snipped in half and then they turn around and release a list "Choose A or B" racials. Its another "What the!?!" moment in the long list since the middle of last year.

 

[Incenjucar]

I've still gotta wonder why the Drows racial got snipped in half and then they turn around and release a list "Choose A or B" racials. Its another "What the!?!" moment in the long list since the middle of last year.

I think it's to compensate for the relative weakness of the abilities, their triggering requirement, and their surge thing.

 

[Aegeri]

At first level with a 13 Con, most classes start with 25 hit points. If you are reduced to 0 hit points, it would take 5 healing surges to heal up to 22, and 6 healing surges to heal up to full. At low levels, being reduced to 0 hit points is not that uncommon. I would say this is a pretty huge weakness.

Assuming the character gets healed from 0 HP (probably in negative HP - a common occurrence for front line characters in my games) by someone with a modest +3 bonus to healing, it should be roughly:

1st surge (healing, 4+3= ) 7 HP - 2nd surge (Surge 4) 11 HP - 3rd Surge 15 HP - 4th Surge (Surge 6, no longer bloodied after 3rd surge) 21 HP.

I mean that is still absolutely terrible don't get me wrong, but it's not quite as bad. It takes 5 healing surges - one extra effectively - to get to full. Of course this is the most extreme scenario, because at level 1 you have the worst of this penalty. By epic the difference would be entirely marginal. This also assumes you are being healed by someone who gains some kind of bonus to the healing (which I do not feel is an unreasonable assumption). Of course if you're being forced to spend your second wind as your healer has no more healing powers left you are in major trouble.

The question is could you live that far to get to high heroic/paragon where the penalty no longer really bothers you that much? Once you get high enough it ceases to be an issue.

Edit: Of course not that players in my games ever need to worry about the surge penalty. I'm going to houserule the silly thing out of existence to begin with.

 

[Incenjucar]

Clearly the racial penalty is for people who miss pre-4E wizards.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Meh, I don't see all the complaints. The -2 surge thing is usually going to be fairly trivial. Lifeblood is actually not bad. There's a pretty good chance you'll either bloody or kill something in most fights. Yes, it is somewhat inconvenient that you can't use it whenever you wish, but I think that's pretty much the point of the power bonus to hit, a benefit that is almost never unwelcome. The other two are going to be useful quite often as well and provide some extra flexibility. Not the strongest racial, but neither is it the worst.

Really, in other respects the race also gets some pretty decent benefits. Choice of an extra language, 2 good skill bonuses, resistance to a very common damage type, and living dead. The 'bluff to be human' thing is pretty minor but nice flavor. Speed 7 is very nice. Low-light vision is meh but should come in handy now and then. Having a couple of unique utility power swaps you can grab for free is worth something too.

I like the fluff. It actually has some nice applicability in my campaign.

 

[Klaus]

So it's a rules artifact...?

Any chance you could confirm whether or not they're able to ignore turning attempts? Including if they take the vampire class?

It's not a rules artifact per se, I included it because it was an interesting mechanical way to represent the blood dependancy of the vrylokas. The old racial power provided an interesting decision point for the player: it boosted the character's second wind, which would be more needed if you were bloodied.

As for the flavor, it has some similarities with the Tieflings, but the vrylokas never looked back on their deal, and managed to reclaim the life they once had. The tieflings, otoh, suffer the stigma of their deal and never regained their empire. Also, the entity that contact the vrylokas, the Red Witch, is more mysterious than the forces of Hell.

 

[Aegeri]

Meh, I don't see all the complaints. The -2 surge thing is usually going to be fairly trivial.

This isn't true at first. Yes it will become trivial, but it amounts to an entire extra surge (and sometimes two surges) at low levels.

I honestly can't fathom why people think surges/surge healing is trivial when monsters now do actually solid amounts of damage (at all levels), with more accuracy in many cases (like brutes, coincidentally the type that does the most damage). It will become trivial, but you've got to carry your albatross around for 3-4 levels at least. Once you get enough HP, yeah, it's irrelevant. Until then it's a pretty big disadvantage starting out.

Really the biggest problem with it is that it's entirely pointless. I personally would have made it +2 to surge value when you're not bloodied. Same thing, but suddenly it's an interesting feature of the race and not a completely unnecessary disadvantage.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

This isn't true at first. Yes it will become trivial, but it amounts to an entire extra surge (and sometimes two surges) at low levels.

I honestly can't fathom why people think surges are trivial when monsters now do actually solid amounts of damage (at all levels), with more accuracy in many cases (like brutes, coincidentally the type that does the most damage). It will become trivial, but you've got to carry your albatross around for 3-4 levels at least. Once you get enough HP, yeah, it's irrelevant. Until then it's a pretty big disadvantage starting out.

Really the biggest problem with it is that it's entirely pointless. I personally would have made it +2 to surge value when you're not bloodied. Same thing, but suddenly it's an interesting feature of the race and not a completely unnecessary disadvantage.

Except that would be a more significant advantage. If -2 when bloodied is potentially 2 surges, then obviously +2 when not bloodied would be pretty much the same thing. In any case you have ways to mitigate the disadvantage, just don't get bloodied. Choose your tactics with care, pick up a way to get an extra surge use you can pull off BEFORE you get bloodied, etc. Obviously not always going to work, but you have a racial power which could help that now and then. Carrying around a healing potion would be a good idea, and make sure you take advantage of leader granted temp HP, powers which grant temp HP, etc.

Not that I can't see your point, but I think you're overrating it.

And yes, the general design concept for 4e was no racial penalties. OTOH Shadow is a bit of a special thing. It makes sense from a design standpoint to incorporate a very limited violation of that rule in order to make shadow races a bit distinct. I'd also say these are not 'bread-n-butter' race choices. They seem much more oriented towards players desiring to work with specific atypical themes. It is actually rather hard to call Vryloka or Shadows races at all in the classical sense.

 

[Aegeri]

Except that would be a more significant advantage.

Yes it would, which would make them interesting and people would want to choose them as a front line character. As it is, you've got a few very hard levels to survive and then the penalty doesn't do anything. +2 is only significant very early on as well, but at least it is therefore a bonus and adds to the race. +2 to surge value while non-bloodied doesn't do a lot either after a few races, but it is there and it's a neat flavorful feature. It does the EXACT same thing as the penalty, has the EXACT same lifespan where it makes a big difference and it's main difference is it fits with 4Es actual design goals (or what they should have remained).

Which is really the entire point.

If -2 when bloodied is potentially 2 surges, then obviously +2 when not bloodied would be pretty much the same thing.

For a while at low levels yes, but like the penalty it is insignificant. The difference is that it doesn't make surviving low levels harder - just encourages you to heal early. Noting that the penalty does the exact same thing, but only because you are put on the back foot massively if you don't. A key difference.

In any case you have ways to mitigate the disadvantage, just don't get bloodied.

This is the worst advice ever, when a simple level 4 skirmisher could jump 10 squares and then leap on you (moving a further 6 squares if it had to), knock you prone and probably dealing a good chunk of damage. When his buddies jump in for some CA fun, you're now bloodied and there was jack you could do about it.

What if you're the parties defender? You get crit by a brute? Oh there you go bloodied. Artillery shoots the nonsense out of you? Bloodied. A chaos shard hits you with its movement penalty power, you get immobilized? Bloodied.

All of these are things that every day low level monsters do. This sort of statement just doesn't consider the reality that 4E monsters have better powers and do more damage (even in heroic). Most characters in a combat, except people who stand well well away cannot avoid getting reliably bloodied. For many characters, like front line strikers, defenders and similar this advice is just impractical. Rather like implying that to avoid cars when crossing the street you should not touch the ground.

Obviously not always going to work, but you have a racial power which could help that now and then.

Assuming you bloody the enemy - something that a ranger with twin strike standing in the back could do easily. But again, aren't we trying to ensure races aren't pigeonholed?

Of course the point again is that the disadvantage is pointless after enough HP is acquired. A +2 would be a really solid benefit and really open them up for defenders, while not being overpowered in the least after only a few levels. Not to mention requires extremely proactive healing to take advantage of in the first place.

4E should do away with dumb, pointless disadvantages.

Carrying around a healing potion would be a good idea, and make sure you take advantage of leader granted temp HP, powers which grant temp HP, etc.

These are buffers - they shouldn't be making up for a disadvantage and should be bonuses.

It makes sense from a design standpoint to incorporate a very limited violation of that rule in order to make shadow races a bit distinct.

I think this logic is really invalid and I see absolutely zero merit whatsoever in your argument. Really, I don't see any need for any of these disadvantages whatsoever. Racial negatives are not a good thing, they don't help differentiate a race at all and they add zero to the game. All they do is penalize players and pigeonhole these races.

Albeit as I keep stressing, this disadvantage has about 4-5 levels of life before it starts to become insignificant. But when it is significant it really heavily penalizes a party whose defender or front line striker made the foolish mistake of picking this race. That's just poor design.