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Shadowcaster fixes by Mouseferatu

Well, Ken answered the major question, it seems.

As far as the Multi-Ability Dependency... While you could certainly houserule it Cha or Int only, I just don't see that working for the class as written. It's hardly the only class that requires two decent stats, and is better off than some. (Try playing a paladin or monk with only two high scores. ;)) It just fits the nature of the class, IMO, better than Cha only or Int only.

All that said, if people do try playing it with just one or just the other, I'm interested--as always--in hearing how it goes. If it winds up making a bigger difference in play that my own experience suggests, I could change my mind. But for the moment, I just don't see two ability scores being that big a MAD issue.
 

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Puggins

Explorer
Supporter
Hi Mouse,

I have an alternative to the bonus spells/day mechanic. I wouldn't mind hearing your opinions on it.

To my mind, just as you've said before, there are only a few levels where the shadowcaster is much more limited in terms of spell slots than the wizard. I think these levels can be elminated or highly mitigated by "smoothing over" the uses per day chart and throwing in one tiny modification.

(1) The Shadowcaster starts at first level knowing two 1st level mysteries instead of one.

(2) Uses per day is no longer tied to the type of ability:

Mystery Level
Lvl......1......2......3......4......5......6......7......8......9

.01.......1......-.......-......-.......-.......-......-.......-........-
.02.......1......-.......-......-.......-.......-......-.......-........-
.03.......1......1.......-......-.......-........-......-.......-.......-
.04.......2......1.......-......-.......-........-......-.......-.......-
.05.......2......1.......1......-.......-........-......-.......-.......-
.06.......2......2.......1......-.......-........-......-.......-.......-
.07.......2......2.......1......1.......-........-......-.......-.......-
.08.......2......2.......2......1.......-........-......-.......-.......-
.09.......2......2.......2......1.......1........-......-.......-.......-
.10.......2......2.......2......1.......1........-......-.......-.......-
.11.......3......2.......2......2.......1........1......-.......-.......-
.12.......3......2.......2......2.......1........1......-.......-.......-
.13.......3......3.......2......2.......2........1......1.......-.......-
.14.......3......3.......2......2.......2........1......1.......-.......-
.15.......3......3.......3......2.......2........2......1.......1.......-
.16.......3......3.......3......2.......2........2......1.......1.......-
.17.......3......3.......3......3.......2........2......2.......1.......1
.18.......3......3.......3......3.......2........2......2.......1.......1
.19.......3......3.......3......3.......3........2......2.......2.......1
.20.......3......3.......3......3.......3........2......2.......2.......1

Sorry about the crumby formatting. Basically, the shadowcaster gets extra uses of his abilities a bit earlier or later, depending on which level we're talking about. I added an extra use per day for each mystery of levels 4,5, 7 and 8 as compensation for all the extra spells per day not obtained from bonus charisma.

Original way ----> New Way
1st level: SC 1 per day, Wiz 2, maybe 3 per day ------> SC 2 per day
6th level: SC 6 per day, Wiz 11 or 14 per day -----> SC 12 per day, more if 3rd level spell not chosen.
12th level: SC 18 per day, Wiz 23 to ~32 -----> 25 per day, more if higher levels sacrificed

I like the feel of this a bit better than the bonus spells per day, which feels a bit at odds with the rest of the shadowcaster.
 

corronchilejano

First Post
A question for Mouseferatu. I don't know very well, but I think you're the original submitter for the ShadowCaster right?

It's that my main issue is the limited amount of spells to choose from he has. I'm playing the fixed version (IMHO a lot better)... and well, basically...

Have you or anyone else created additional spells? Because some of the roads just don't make sense while others do.
 


RIMEWINDMASTER

First Post
Well i just think if you just take away that peculiarities from the shadowcaster

It was only to be a wizard whit a merely conection to the shadow plane.


im playin whit a human shadowcaster & its difficult but very powerfull


Well its only my opinion
 

Cadfan

First Post
That web enhancement is very nice.

I'll miss losing the Shadowcaster in 4th Ed. Its easily my favorite class. I know it has a few mechanical flaws, but it really accomplishes its goals flavor wise. I hope we eventually see its 4e reincarnation.
 

Cadfan said:
That web enhancement is very nice.

Thanks. :)

I'll miss losing the Shadowcaster in 4th Ed. Its easily my favorite class. I know it has a few mechanical flaws, but it really accomplishes its goals flavor wise. I hope we eventually see its 4e reincarnation.

I can't make any promises, but rest assured that if the mechanics of 4E allow any room for a modified shadowcaster, I'll be trying hard to talk WotC into letting me recreate it somewhere official. :)
 

MeditationAsp

First Post
I talked my DM into letting me try this class in our upcoming campaign, though he hasn't actually read ToM yet so there's still a bit of hesitation. We don't do too many magic classes in our campaigns so maybe it's just that I'm a bit rusty on the rules, but I've already run into a few issues. I don't know if they fall under fixes, but clarification would certainly help.

Firstly, does the change to the DC of Mysteries that become supernatural also apply to Fundamentals? I've read through the two threads on Shadow Casters that I could find and didn't see an answer either way, but it was late so perhaps I missed it.

Secondly, Quicken Mystery; what's the drawback to this feat? I see that it's once per day and requires three other metashadow feats, but that can't be all. Can this feat really be used to Quicken 9th level mysteries? That seems terribly unbalanced seeing as at least Quicken Spell elevates the spell level and thus can't be used for spells over 5th level. The only way I see that Quicken Mystery is like Quicken Spell is that neither work on spells that have longer than 1-round casting time, which I would assume is to rule out casting a Mystery Quickened and Maximized/Empowered/Extended. I wish that, rather than reference other books, things were simply described completely.

One last question; what are the mechanics of an Extended, Maximized, Reach mystery (or any other combination of metashadow feats that increase casting time)? Impossible, still a full-round casting time, twice that? Again, it's a question of drawbacks. The limited use on metashadow feats isn't so terrible when you take into account that the mysteries have limited use in the first place and the Mysteries that you most likely want to use those on will have 1 or 2 daily uses anyway. Just the increased casting time is hardly a fair trade to, for example, be able to do 30 damage and slow from 30ft with a ranged touch attack for (potentially) 10 attacks with Umbral Touch at 5th level. Pretty sure my DM wouldn't allow that even if the mechanics do.

If I'm just missing some little something in the rules that should answer all these questions (I do that sometimes), I'd love to know. I've already had to argue for Quicken Mystery just to keep it in play, so anything as far as intent or reasoning for the rulings that might help me make a case to my DM would be much appreciated. I'm very eager to play this class and would love to be able to understand and explain all the nuances that balance the things my DM otherwise might take exception to.
 

Cadfan

First Post
MeditationAsp-

1) No. An apprentice level mystery that becomes supernatural does not get the supernatural save DC. However, everyone seems to play it that way. I'd recommend playing it that way because otherwise apprentice level mysteries become useless at high levels, and you're stuck with them. I don't think the game is going to be broken by a Command effect with a high DC.

2) There is no drawback. It quickens something once per day. Its nice, but its not that nice. Its less powerful on a wizard because quickening your mysteries just uses them up faster, and you don't have very many.

3) It becomes a full round action. I don't think its got any particular balance problems, myself. The sheer amount of resources being used up in order to do well in one combat per day does not scare me, particularly given the crappy ranged touch attacks a 1/2 BAB class with 2 main casting stats is going to have.
 

wykthor

First Post
Mouseferatu said:
I can't make any promises, but rest assured that if the mechanics of 4E allow any room for a modified shadowcaster, I'll be trying hard to talk WotC into letting me recreate it somewhere official. :)

GREAT :D

A 4e ShadowCaster (from Shadowfell of course!) and the Violet Dawn CS are definitely on my wish list for the next year. Please, do it, Ari :)
 

OK, this is really old thread res, and I'm sorry for that, but I thought it the best place to question this.

I'm playing a Shadowcaster using Ari's Modified version (post 2 this thread), and I was wondering if the following was intentional:

Rule 3) allows one to jump around in order w/o requiring path-finishing (I think this is fine as is);
Rule 4) requires one to know the two previous level's mysteries BEFORE learning the next higher one (I think this is fine as is);
Rule 6) lets one swap mysteries like a sorcerer (I think there's a problem);

Looking at that, this means that after gaining Greater Shadow Evocation at 11th, I could swap a L1-4 mystery for another L6 maneuver at L12 (like, Greater Shadow Evocation again, for example).

ie, its like the Tome of Battle class's ability to lose previous prerequisite maneuvers to gain higher level maneuvers, as long as the prereq's are all met.


Was this intentional? Is it even unbalancing?

edit: NM! I see that sorcerers have to repick the same level spell when they relearn, so it doesn't work the way I thought.


*********************
Also had a question w/o the modification:

Favored Mystery bumps a mystery to the next highest level: spells to Sp, Sp to Su. It doesn't give extra uses per day (unless its an Su already). However, the class ability does give extra uses per day, and the only requirement for the extra uses is if the mystery is Sp or Su. Thus, although the feat doesn't give extra uses, the class ability does.

Is this intentional?

**********************
One other thing: does shadow evocation / greater shadow evocation still allow SR when it becomes an Su through the Favored Mystery feat?
 
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Sethvir

First Post
And I am going to resurrect this thread once again.

I just started playing a shadowcaster in a new campaign I just joined. Been very interesting so far. The character has made a difference in the way combat flows, particularly when encountering large groups. He has become a battlefield control expert. Rooting foes in place, directing them around areas becasue they are aflame, etc. I just used Shadow Vision last night followed by Killing Shadows to maximum effect, as the character is 9th level, and dealt nearly 40 points of damage on each of two attacks.

Anyway, so the question I had isn't really related to this, but rather to Feats and interactions with Mysteries. On page 138 under Mysteries and Paths, talking about the characteristics of Mysteries, it states in the very last bullet that Mysteries cannot benefit from feats that enchance spells, such as metamagic feats.

The corollary to this is that for the Shadowcaster in the Bonus Feat section it states that the list of bonus feats includes any metamagic feat.

But if I am a mystery caster, and mystery's don't benefit from Metamagic feats, what's the point of having metamagic feats available as bonus feats?

Or am I missing something?

Thanks.
 

Cadfan

First Post
I think that's there to accommodate multiclassers. The shadowcaster was designed with multiclass very much in mind.

Man, I hope this class gets revived for 4e, this time with functional mechanics. :) I should write something up.
 



Sethvir

First Post
My shadowcaster that I have been playing for the last 7 months or so is approaching epic levels. He's about to level to 18 and the campaign is going to continue.

I was wondering if anyone had given any thought to an Epic Progression for this class? Since the Shadowcasters are a mix of Charisma and Intelligence and effectively casters, I was looking at making a rough progression based on a either the sorcerer or wizard progressions or some combination thereof.

Any thoughts or input would be welcomed.

Thanks.
 

null

First Post
Oooh! My turn to resurrect.

A quick question; how tall exactly are the flames for Blackfire. I've been using three feet but it comes up enough that I'd like to hear something close to official.
 

ValidusVeritas

First Post
My shadowcaster that I have been playing for the last 7 months or so is approaching epic levels. He's about to level to 18 and the campaign is going to continue.

I was wondering if anyone had given any thought to an Epic Progression for this class? Since the Shadowcasters are a mix of Charisma and Intelligence and effectively casters, I was looking at making a rough progression based on a either the sorcerer or wizard progressions or some combination thereof.

Any thoughts or input would be welcomed.

Thanks.

I played in a 30th Lvl adventure and used a Shadowcaster... basically all we did was make my Save DCs higher as appropriate and everything else that comes with the progression normally and then gave me access to one epic spell. I forget what it's called but its the buff one. My choice was of course CHA and my caster had like a 83 CHA at the end of the day. Which, makes his DCs pretty near impossible to hit, which makes the 8th and 9th Lvl Mysteries really really really good. Esp the save or die one and the prison of cold one that deals them Con dmg.

Oooh! My turn to resurrect.

A quick question; how tall exactly are the flames for Blackfire. I've been using three feet but it comes up enough that I'd like to hear something close to official.


We decided that since the Fire takes up a 5ft square, it would be a cube of fire. And since it's magical fire, it doesn't technically need anything to burn so you can stack the squares into a column. Which really came in handy when I needed to hit a flying dragon with it. :p
 
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