Shadowfell, and reworking of undead and afterlife

[Fallen Seraph]

I don't think the pyramid scheme will be in 4e, with the smaller selection of gods. I imagine they will make each god dedicated to specific things with very specific personalities, etc.

 

[Lackhand]

Makes you wonder if they really deserve being called "gods" then, as modern people understand the term.

They seem more like the Greek gods (meaning Zeus et. al.) who did not create the Universe, but lived in it just as much as humans did (and just as prone as men to mistakes and failure of character). They are not like the Abrahamic God at all, omnipotent and all-knowing.

Makes you wonder if maybe there are Churches in D&D World that reject "the gods" (meaning Corellon, The Raven Queen, etc.) as just powerful mortals, and instead worship "the true god" who created the universe, and actually knows what happens to souls after they pass beyond the last Shadowfell. Would such persons be "Clerics" (the class)? Would they get spells?

I guess that depends on (1) whether 4E still has the idea of "alignment" Clerics, and (2) where you think their spells come from.

Snark, but I snark because I love: I don't see why the Greek gods, or the Norse gods, are any less deserving of the title "god". I mean, there are totally enough of them; if the modern usage of god has drifted from the previous... tough? Too bad? I mean, it's a perfectly acceptable usage of it, and it's not like there are any other words which D&D uses a prior version of.

I said it before, I'll say it again, my split would have "demigod" be a template or an excuse for the upper reaches of paragon level-through epic level power; lesser deity is just barely trans-epic (so levels 27 through 35, say), and greater deity has no in-game stats, but its avatars look like lesser deities.

Everyone's happy; gods of "beyond mortal ken, unkillable and eternal" can be greater gods, gods that are very frightening and only beatable via a conjunction of moons can be lesser, and gods that are local gods, or really tough, can be demigods.

Voila!

But not letting them in on what happens to mortal spirits: poor form. Poor form. I suppose it's so that they don't need to pin it down in the core books; it was most noticeable in Ghostwalk, where the after-afterlife was... not the best part of the setting. In the forgotten realms or planescape, deities know darn well what happens to petitioners. In the default campaign, no. In my version of the default campaign, yes.

 

[ferratus]

I like the new stuff with undead, seemingly dividing up the powers of the soul (animate, intellectual, sensitive) into seprate spiritual forces which exist in life and unlife. Not a very good match to Thomistic explanations of the soul. In Thomism the soul itself has a singular essential unity. Also, unlike the popular imagination Thomism rejects the dualistic "ghost in the machine", as the material body is essential for the full and proper existence of the soul.

It sounds similar enough though, along with demons and devils being corruptions of a created good, to make me wonder if there is someone familiar with Thomism at WotC. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, after all the resemblance is passing at best.

As for the Greek Gods, it would be helpful to think of them not as divine humans holding an office job as "god of x" but rather something immortal anthropomorphized. Hades wasn't the god of death, he was Death. Aphrodite wasn't the goddess of sexual love, she was lust personified. Likewise Athena wasn't the goddess of weaving, warfare, and wisdom... she was the personification of intellectual competence and skill which is essential to be good at all those things.

The Norse Gods are a little tricker to define theologically. Odin is a crafty old bastard with magic powers first and foremost, and he doesn't seem to be the embodiment of something immortal. I'll leave someone who knows more about Norse Gods to explain them.

 

[Dunamin]

I guess that depends on (1) whether 4E still has the idea of "alignment" Clerics, and (2) where you think their spells come from.

I really hope they've dropped clerics that serve Good or Evil, rather than a specific god. What a bland and boring concept!

Intricately detailed philosophies I can live with, but choosing to simply serve “Goodness” is a dull and apathetic idea, usually used as an excuse for the player to more freely choose cleric domains.

 

[JohnSnow]

As for the Greek Gods, it would be helpful to think of them not as divine humans holding an office job as "god of x" but rather something immortal anthropomorphized. Hades wasn't the god of death, he was Death. Aphrodite wasn't the goddess of sexual love, she was lust personified. Likewise Athena wasn't the goddess of weaving, warfare, and wisdom... she was the personification of intellectual competence and skill which is essential to be good at all those things.

And Zeus is, what, exactly? The Sky personified? So why was he such a horny bastard when it came to pretty mortals?

Say what you want about the Greek gods, but they were more than just anthropomorphized immortals. Based on the mythology, they basically were divine humans performing a job as "god of x."

And as far as Norse deities go, if memory serves, in at least one myth, Odin was raised by humans. So I'm thinking he didn't exactly exist before them.

Omnipotent, omniscient deities don't make for interesting adventures.

 

[Incenjucar]

Omnipotent, omniscient deities don't make for interesting adventures.

Well, they CAN... if they're jerks.

 

[pemerton]

What he said, the entire point of having gods that are actual real entities in the D&D context is the tangibility of the afterlife. Having some serial numbers removed Nirvana/Circle of Souls as the afterlife is just terminally uncreative and dumps one of the central bits of D&D lore over the editions. That souls are real and go to a place where these powerful things called gods reside and a powerful enough character can literally go there and meet them in that physical place. And for what? Just a tired old cliche that has been used in so many FRPGs it's become generic. I thought they were supposed to be emphasizing what made D&D unique.

I won't take up the challenge of the last sentence, but I will note that W&M is actually contradictory on the fate of souls. The discussion in the Shadowfell section says that they go primarily to the some mysterious fate, but ocassionally they go to a god's realm instead. The discussion in the Devils section (I think it's there) says that they go primarily to gods, and this is part of what is good for Devils about snatching them.

Given the overall design priorities of 4e, I'm not sure what the best way is to go here.

 

[pemerton]

I like the new stuff with undead, seemingly dividing up the powers of the soul (animate, intellectual, sensitive) into seprate spiritual forces which exist in life and unlife. Not a very good match to Thomistic explanations of the soul. In Thomism the soul itself has a singular essential unity. Also, unlike the popular imagination Thomism rejects the dualistic "ghost in the machine", as the material body is essential for the full and proper existence of the soul.

It sounds similar enough though, along with demons and devils being corruptions of a created good, to make me wonder if there is someone familiar with Thomism at WotC. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, after all the resemblance is passing at best.

I think the resemblance between the Devils and Demons and real-world Christian theology is because of the infuence of the latter on popular culture.

I think you are right when you say that there is no good match between D&D's account of the soul and the Aristotelian/Thomistic account, which (as you note) argues to the unity of matter (body) and form (soul). D&D takes a very dualistic (or more than dualistic, given the animus) view. Chris Sims in W&M mentions being inspired by some ancient Egyptian ideas. The first time I encountered those ideas was in the old RM campaign book "Mythic Egypt", and it led me to handle Undead in a similar way to the 4e way.

The only fantasy RPG rulebook I've read that demonstrates a genuine familiarity with the European philosophical tradition is Rolemaster Companion VI (authored I think by Lev Lafayette, who posts and reviews from time to time on RPGnet).

 

[frankthedm]

The shadowfell sounds like the 'spirit world' in the Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver games, so there is plenty of potential for multi dimensional dungeons.

 

[vagabundo]

I like all these changes. IT gives me more hooks to hang stories from, which at the end of the day is what I want.

The further DND gets away from historical context the better, IMO.

I prefer my DND gods to be powerful beings but not omnipotent. Them not knowing where the souls go is a cool idea.