Shadowfell, and reworking of undead and afterlife

[erf_beto]

I won't take up the challenge of the last sentence, but I will note that W&M is actually contradictory on the fate of souls. The discussion in the Shadowfell section says that they go primarily to the some mysterious fate, but ocassionally they go to a god's realm instead. The discussion in the Devils section (I think it's there) says that they go primarily to gods, and this is part of what is good for Devils about snatching them.

Given the overall design priorities of 4e, I'm not sure what the best way is to go here.

Well, that's interesting. They could go bothways.

The power and status of a god could come from the amount of souls he collects. His devoted worshipers go to his realm, enforcing his power, so the deity needs clerics and churches to convert the masses: the more, ther merrier. We could have gods fighting over the souls of the 'unaligned' dead, or those whose faiths are not strong enough: an afterlife court room, where angels of each god advocate the ownership of each soul. Kinda like Odin and Freya, in Norse myth: they would split the souls of brave warriors between them. There could even be soul trade and devils capturing souls and 'selling' to ascending gods (though dark priests) and warlocks marking souls, defining their resting place (the whole boon of souls thing). There's even space for the Gaia theory, or the One God, creator of all, like Irda Ranger suggested: undefined souls become one with the universe, and even the gods, as greedy as they can get, know that 'recharging' the cosmos is necessary.

So essentialy, the gods don't know where the souls go. But they do what they can to get them for themselves.

Another way of looking into this is realizing that a being of infinite wisdom and power cannot converse with mortals in any way. When you cast a high level divination and asks a 'god' about the fate of the souls, you're not talking to the god himself, because he's infinity and you're not! So he shows you an aspect of himself, a finite form, like an avatar, very powerfull, but definetly NOT almighty/allknowing. Those who study 'real world' angels (so I've read somewhere) advocate that only the highest 7(?) archangels can see/talk to God, when Himself wishes to do so. It's not a matter of permition: no seraph or cherub has that power.

Just brainstorming... this is all cool.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

So essentialy, the gods don't know where the souls go. But they do what they can to get them for themselves.

Except that the actions you just describe contradicts your own point, in order to get the souls they have to know where to go and what to do to acquire them. In which case they know where the souls end up otherwise they couldn't collect.

Another way of looking into this is realizing that a being of infinite wisdom and power cannot converse with mortals in any way. When you cast a high level divination and asks a 'god' about the fate of the souls, you're not talking to the god himself, because he's infinity and you're not! So he shows you an aspect of himself, a finite form, like an avatar, very powerfull, but definetly NOT almighty/allknowing. Those who study 'real world' angels (so I've read somewhere) advocate that only the highest 7(?) archangels can see/talk to God, when Himself wishes to do so. It's not a matter of permition: no seraph or cherub has that power.

Except that by definition D&D gods are neither infinite nor omniscient. I'm not sure we could get into this much deeper here without delving into Comparitive Religious Philosophy which would be against the board rules. But the characteristics assigned to D&D gods preclude them being transfinite in the sense used when discussing the nature of a transcendental all-encompassing deity. Prime among them is that there are multiple gods. There could only be a single transfinite deity because that deity would in effect be the sum of creation and thus any more than one would necessitate those deities were merely aspects of a single omni-deity. This is even without delving into the issue of whether the deities have stats or are statless or whether they created the cosmos in question or are merely residents thereof. At a basic level an omnipresent deity precludes the existence of any other deity as an independant being as that would require the existence of something outside its presence.

 

[The Little Raven]

World and Monsters slightly contradicts itself.

On the one hand, gods don't know where the souls of most mortals go. On the other hand, page 77 of the book says "Most mortals ascend to a god's domain when they die."

 

[jimpaladin]

As far as gods not knowing... what about this? The reason not known is because isn't that what clerics are for on the prime? I mean as a diety I have much more to do than look over every sentient creature on the planet and try to appeal to them.
As a diety I rely on my "minions" that I imbue with special abilities to show the others that the best way to LIVE is to worship/follow me. I never understood this "power" after death concept to "fuel" the dieities powers.

of course imho and 2pence worth

 

[Stogoe]

I just figured that page 77 was mistaken. I love that no one knows what happens to a soul after it leaves the Shadowfell, and I love Greek-style gods - insanely powerful, but with their own shortcomings and petty squabbles.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

World and Monsters slightly contradicts itself.

On the one hand, gods don't know where the souls of most mortals go. On the other hand, page 77 of the book says "Most mortals ascend to a god's domain when they die."

Not to say it's not a contradiction, but maybe the soul ascends there, but eventually, it disappears? Maybe only a part of the soul appears there. So there is a soul-soul that nobody knows where it goes?

Also, the animus and soul thing helps to clarify the types of undead

I like this bit, too, though I haven't much detail on it yet. (W&M isn't available yet at my favourite supplier )

In an Arcana Evolved campaign, I used the concept of spirit (=> animus), soul, body and mind as the parts of a normal living being.
Without a spirit, you'd have a creature with no desires and no goals. Constructs would be like this, and many types of undead.
Without a soul, you don't have the capability to act morally or differentiate between right or wrong. Devils, Demons and undead fit into this concept.
Without a body, you can't normally interact with the world. Incorporeal beings are the only one fitting this.
Without a mind, you can't think or rationalize, can't formulate plans. If at all, you act instinctively. Undeads and Constructs fit this paradigm, but maybe even animals.

 

[Belorin]

What we have to remember is that all of the stuff in both W&M and R&C are months old and more than likely have been refined by now (for bettter or worse).
That being said I must admit I am digging the whole Shadowfell, Raven Queen, dead and undead vibe. That plus the fact that there are so many different ways for the creation of undead, Orcus, Vecna, the Raven Queen or even just the Shadowfell intruding on the natural world.
I also like the body - soul - animus explaination of the various types of undead, much more believable than energy from the negative energy plane.

Bel

 

[coriolis]

Makes you wonder if maybe there are Churches in D&D World that reject "the gods" (meaning Corellon, The Raven Queen, etc.) as just powerful mortals, and instead worship "the true god" who created the universe, and actually knows what happens to souls after they pass beyond the last Shadowfell. Would such persons be "Clerics" (the class)? Would they get spells?

Yes. They're called the Athar (from Planescape).

The "true god" you mentioned is called the Great Unknown by them.

 

[Nahat Anoj]

World and Monsters slightly contradicts itself.

On the one hand, gods don't know where the souls of most mortals go. On the other hand, page 77 of the book says "Most mortals ascend to a god's domain when they die."

Yeah, that's in the context of Asmodeus learning how to "direct" souls to the Nine Hells. I think Asmodeus will still be able to direct souls away from the afterlife and to the Nine Hells, but that the "default" will be that mortals in general won't go to abode of the gods. Only a few mortals - saints and the like - will go on to serve. But W&M mentions that is neither a reward nor a sacrifice - it's just a continuation of life.

 

[GreatLemur]

I also like the body - soul - animus explaination of the various types of undead, much more believable than energy from the negative energy plane.

Seriously. If I never hear about negative or positive energy again, I will be notably happier with 4e. Freakin New Age wankery...