Shadowrun D20 Conversion

[TeeSeeJay]

I am not certain about he meant it, but I might give an example how I would understand it:
In D&D, Hitpoints represent not only your physical toughness, but also your ability to dodge blows and so on.
If your hitpoints are out, you are not only unable to dodge blows, but do have lost your physical toughness and begin dying.

In Shadowrun, you really make a Dodge Roll representing your ability to dodge a blow - or a shot (not actually the projectile), and thereafter you make a toughness (Constitution) roll representing your ability to shrug off the damage.
If you are injured, you suffer penalties representing your hindrance through pains or injured body parts.

Your armor weakens the potential of damage to harm you, it does not completely block or completely fail to block like in D&D.

This does create unique Shadowrun Flavour in combat situations.
But it is everyones own decision if he really needs this part of Flavour when searching for alternate systems.

Mustrum Ridcully

This is pretty much dead-on. D&D combat is an abstraction, in that when you roll to hit, you're not rolling to see the outcome of a specific swing of the sword, you're rolling to the see the outcome of several seconds-worth of stabs, slashes, parrys, dodges, etc. When you "miss" in D&D, you don't literally miss the target with your attack, you just fail to make significant contact in a way to deal damage. That's why the target's AC and DEX bonus are factors in your chance to "hit".

Hit points are pretty much what Mustrum said -- they're units that represent a character's ability to fight. They represent all the little combat details that aren't important enough to bog down in actual rules -- a second level fighter is better than a first level fighter. Why? Because he can somehow physically sustain more cuts and blows than the other guy? That makes no sense, but we are talking about "heroes" here. It only makes sense if you think of it in terms of improved ability. It also explains why different classes use different hit dice. A wizard with a d4 HD is never going to be as good in a fight as a similar-level fighter. Not because the wizard is frail and brittle (though that's a part of it, but reflected not through HP but through the STR and CON attributes). The more hit points you have, the better you are in a fight -- simple as that -- it might be the way you've learned to twist your torso to direct the blow to a less-vital place, a last-second flick of the shield to slow down the attacker's weapon. Of all the methods to reflect this improvement in ability, I think that HP is the simplest. You could create a sliding scale for the amount of damage done by a weapon against a creature of a certain level, or you could work level into an AC bonus, but are those really graceful solutions?

Now, in a firearms-based game like Shadowrun, the implication is that combat is more literal, a one-attack equals one-bullet situation. This isn't melee combat with feints and dodges, it's pointing a gun and pulling the trigger. The defender's stats and skills doesn't impact your chances of hitting him.

Have I made sense of this?

 

[TeeSeeJay]

I may as well also say that any rationalization or explanation of hit points is useless when a "modern" game uses hit points to track character health. Unless you also abstract the number of shots fired and the number of shots in a clip. Personally, I can't conceive of a way to properly attach a "literal" combat engine to an "abstract" health system. Aside from basic convention, that is. Sometimes, that's all that counts, I guess. But don't worry about me, I'm not going to be losing any sleep because my d20 modern character has hit points instead of a condition monitor

 

[Cergorach]

In Shadowrun three Abilities make up the ability to dodge, those a Quickness (Dex), Intelligence (Int), and Willpower (Wis), these make up the Combat Pool. This is the 'stat' that can be used to 'dodge' bullets (or rather screw with the attackers aim through making yourself hard to hit). The same stat can be used to better hit someone. Armor lessens the impact of damage doing items (such as bullets and swords). Body is used to 'resist' damage (soak the amount of trauma the residual effects of a hit).

In D&D (D&D!=D20), Dex, Armor, and certain Feats make up your ability to be hit. Hit Points represent both your ability to evade and to soak damage.

To me there are three different parts to evade getting hit (actually there are four, but luck is represented through the dice), skill, experience, and natural ability.

In Shadowrun these three things are stuck together in the three Ability scores that make up the Combat Pool. Through experience those stats are raised, it's skill and training that raises them. The starting stat represents natural ability.

In D&D natural ability is represented through the Ability scores (although these are also raised through experience/training). Feats and Hit Points are experience/skill.

Armor is handled in D&D as an ability to get hit, in Shadowrun it's factored into the ability to resist damage.

Doing physical harm is weaved into Hit Points in D&D, but in Shadowrun it's the Health Monitor that represents the actual health and Body is used to represent health level.

Both game systems are designed to simulate combat, both are not realistic, and one is certainly not more realistic than the other (they are after all game mechanics and not simulations). Shadowrun is more transparent than D&D though, each stat has it's own job, non overlap, the downside is that a lot of resolution (aka.dice rolls) and record keeping is neccessary by the user. D&D on the other hand makes it's mechanics more dynamic (less dice rolling) by grouping components.

D&D is not D20 (D&D!=D20), look for example to Spycraft or Traveller D20. These are all D20 systems that add a lot of transparancy to the D20 equation but do not reduce the dynamic flow of the game. D20 is just a system that uses D20s to resolve actions, it doesn't need Hit Points (Mutants & Masterminds showed us that, although it isn't directly labeled as D20).

I think that Shadowrun can be a successful D20 game, but it wouldn't and shouldn't be a D&D clone (or a D20 Modern clone). Classes aren't really a problem, in Shadowrun each character has a certain role, these are in effect classes. A game that uses classes doesn't have to be inflexible...

 

[Corinth]

Shadowrun is very much a skills-based system, where D&D/d20 is a class/level based system. While the Shadowrun games features "archetypes" to allow new players an easy way to create a new character, these archetypes aren't technically classes in the sense that "fighter" and "wizard" are classes. Shadowrun just wouldn't work as a d20 game.

All of which still boil down to some combination of fighter, wizard, cleric (shaman) and rogue. Hand me a +3 Ares Predator w/ a smartlink, and I'm set.

The main reason, however, is that D&D/d20 features an ABSTRACTED combat system, where Shadowrun (and many similar games) features a LITERAL combat system -- that is why hit points work. I'm not going to get into my whole spiel about this unless someone really wants to hear it.

Here you actually have a point to argue about. Unfortunately, it's an arguement that doesn't have much substance in practical play because the default d20 damage tracking system--HP--do the job just fine, and often better than most would believe. Most gamers neither want nor need such a system; it gets in the way of both the gameplay and (ironically) the verisimiltude of the setting.

(The FBI's studies into the effects of injuries found that combatants act in a manner similiar to D&D characters: they remain functional unless a blow does so much damage outright that the body can't shunt the pain away; otherwise, they remain functional until the fight is over, whereby the body allow pain to be felt and thus signify that medical care is necessary. In d20 terms, this is akin to the Massive Damage Threshold rules as they appear in d20 Modern.)

 

[Kesh]

I don't see WizKids moving SR to the d20 system anytime in the near future. SR has a really nice rules-base, and plenty of sourcebooks to support those rules.

However, I don't see a problem with a d20 Conversion. I'm personally thinking of running a d20 Modern campaign based on Bug City!

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Shadowrun has a flavor that is very conducive to the d20 system mechanics-- it's very cinematic and action based, and many characters do tend to shrug off a lot of injuries, just like they should in any good action movie.

On the other hand, the Shadowrun mechanics themselves operate the game feel very well, and there are tons of sourcebooks already using those mechanics. A d20 conversion of Shadowrun would be easier to play, and easier to draw new players into, but I already have my players playing Shadowrun.

I think it'd be nice to see a d20 conversion, but when I want to play Shadowrun, it's easier to pick up my Shadowrun books than it would be to homebrew that conversion myself.

 

[Cergorach]

Not to be annoying, but i thought this was about a fan made D20 version. There will NOT be an official version, the people who make Shadowrun (FanPro, not WizKids) have already said so.

 

[Holy Bovine]

Shadowrun is very much a skills-based system, where D&D/d20 is a class/level based system.

Just to pick a nit here. The core d20 rules are NOT tied to class and level. For something to be 'd20' it only has to use the core mechanic of rolling a d20 and adding (or subtracting) modifiers to hit a specific target number.

D&D 3E is a class & level based game, using the d20 mechanic.


Back to your regularly scheduled thread

 

[TeeSeeJay]

Just to pick a nit here. The core d20 rules are NOT tied to class and level. For something to be 'd20' it only has to use the core mechanic of rolling a d20 and adding (or subtracting) modifiers to hit a specific target number.

D&D 3E is a class & level based game, using the d20 mechanic.


Back to your regularly scheduled thread

That's an oversimplication. For something to be 'd20' it has to be based on the d20 SRD. That SRD, may I remind you, features character classes with unique abilities, some of which are level-dependant, and are not replicated in other skills. For a product to be labeled 'd20' it also must indicate that the D&D player's handbook is a necessary accessory for play. If you were to make a game based only on the core mechanic for rolling a die against a target number, it wouldn't be a 'd20' game, it'd just be a game in which you roll a d20.

d20 may != D&D, but you have to qualify that by stating that d20 SRD = (D&D-product identity).

 

[evildmguy]

Lots of good stuff here! Good discussion!

imo, I think the gaming mechanics help determine role playing. If bullets are deadly, a la Shadowrun or Alternity, then players won't rush the bad guys head on. If there are hit points, though, my players will rush a tank with a dagger and piece of string!

I do agree that all RPGs only do a simulation of combat. I personally love Alternity's version. I say this because I think it allows for a heroic style, if wanted, but has realism built in. The thing about the Alternity system is that because the rules are there, there is a LOT you can ignore and it doesn't mess up the game. DND doesn't work too well without all of its pieces. (Read Monte Cook's LOS on how the DND hit point systems won't work with armor used as damage reduction.)

DND's system does work within its own context, though, and it is simple enough that new players can pick up the game and start playing. In the end, that's more important to me.

TSJ: Alternity does NOT have levels. I say it this way because levels, to a DND audience, mean a different thing. Alternity is completely skill based. The "levels" that are there are only to indicate when points can be spent to improve skills. They aren't levels in the sense of DND. Otherwise, I agree with what you said!

As to the thread, I still don't want to see a d20 Shadowrun. I am *sick* of everyone asking for their favorite or old games to be converted to d20. Maybe that's because I don't think d20 is the end all be all game mechanic that lots of people seem to think it is.

That's just my opinion.

edg