Shadows' Lethal Strength Drain

[FreeTheSlaves]

Sigh...

I guess I'm going to have to recount the battle before we actually discuss the rules in question. The context is much more popular than I'd have thought.

Ok.

The 'party' consists of:
- 11th level human male Paladin, defensive build
- 9th level human female Cleric (25pt buy cohort), undead destroying and counterspelling build
- armoured Pegasus mount of the Paladin
- 2 x warhorses

and

- dead 11th level human male Cleric, offensive melee build
- missing 11th level elven female Sorceress, blast-em and high mobility build

(The player of the dead leader Cleric played the cohort Cleric, while the player of the Sorcereress was absent.)

Background:

The party has been locked in an ongoing battle with nearby vampires and has just suffered a defeat as a Dread Wraith killed the senior cleric. Having weighed up all their options, they decided their best choice was to avoid the vampires by braving the nearby woods. The vampires would almost certainly not go there. Their per-day spells are almost totally exhausted but they have many scrolls, albeit with holes in their repertoire.

Combat:

During the night the heroes hear nearby movement but decide that their safest bet is to hope to be not be found. They’re found. Combat begins with undead emerging from the darkness around the formerly hidden campsite

Rd1 – incorporeal shadows surge forth suddenly to flank and strike the Cleric twice, draining her 12 str to 4.
Rd1 – Paladin moves to impede further enemies and power attacks a Shadow but swings at vapors.
Rd1 – Ghouls swarm forth but are impeded by tents, ropes, trees and the Paladin. Their attacks are of little consequence.
Rd1 – Cleric cannot withdraw as the AoO may kill without being any better off. Cleric can cast ‘protection from evil’ to improve her AC by 10%, but would still face 2 flanking Shadows. Cleric 5’ adjusts to better ground and wipes out half the Ghouls and 1 shadow. It is impossible to get both Shadows within the cone of turning.
Rd1 – The Pegasus does its attacks.
Rd2 – Remaining Shadow hits and kills Cleric.
Remainder – Paladin easily wins.

Both dead characters were later resurrected and are convalescing, reequipping and recruiting. We will prevail. If we get a TPK, we’ll bring in our brother’s mother’s cousins to continue the good fight.

My point with the Shadows’ strength drain is that it is an attack that effectively converts the Cleric’s unbuffed AC from 22 to 9, and her HPs from 55 to 12 – without the ability to go into negatives. Even the Paladin only had an effective AC of 12 (when flatfooted) and 20 effective HPs. I’m certain a level 15 wizard could be taken out real easy if jumped by a handful of these guys.

Excuse me but I thought going up levels made a character more durable, but defensively she was no better than if she was 1st level against this attack.

 

[Hawken]

How, exactly, are you supposed to run from an incorporeal undead when you're a character wearing heavy armor? They move twice as fast and run almost three times as fast, in addition to completely ignoring non-force-effect non-antimagic obstacles.

The point is you move and count on their pursuit drawing attacks of opportunity that either get the shadows to change target or hacked to pieces.

Cleric can cast ‘protection from evil’ to improve her AC by 10%, but would still face 2 flanking Shadows.

You make the amount seem so small by saying "10%". A +2 deflection bonus to AC could have made the difference between life and death for that cleric. Also, on the off-chance that they were summoned shadows, they would have been unable to further touch the cleric. Its a small chance, but one that would have been worth taking.

cone of turning

What exactly is this? I looked at Turning (again) in the PHB and it says your Turning affects the undead closest to you, and goes out to 60'. It doesn't say anything about a cone, just line of effect--which your cleric definitely had. Unless I'm missing something else (boy, was I off on the enhancement thing about armor, sorry!), the Turn should have affected both shadows without even requiring the cleric to move and before any of the ghouls were hit by it.

And to your last comment, characters don't become more durable as they advance. Yeah, against goblins, sure, but the threats escalate as you advance, so you're not really any more "durable" than before when you're facing things that are as tough as you are. What you do gain as you advance are options. Resources (increased money, magic, items, etc.) and options (more skills, feats, class abilities, etc.). You're still human (or whatever), but at higher levels, you just have more choices available when faced with basically the same or near same scenarios that you faced in your beginning levels.

 

[Shin Okada]

Couldn't your 11th level paladin turn shadows? They are 3HD undead with +2 turn resistance. Thus counted as HD5 undead. Now your paladin can turn as a 8th level cleric and with his high charisma, it is usually enough to turn 2 shadows and some ghouls. I think best tactics was that both your paladin and that cohort using Turn Undead. No AoO. And likely to be enough to wipe-out all the assaulting undead monsters. Your paladin swung at an incorporeal undead with non-ghost touch weapon instead and that was not a good choice.

But anyway, it happens. Leadership feat is widely considered to be the most broken and the most powerful feat. But technically, that is still a 11th-level PC adventuring solo (your cohort and mounts are part of your power and resources). And that last encounter of the day costed your most precious resource. It happens.

2 Shadows and some ghouls make, maybe an EL 7-8 encounter? A solo 11th-level PC is a equivalent of a 4 men 7th level party. So, that was a challenging encounter at least and losing considerable amount of resources is an expected consequence.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

Whoops, looks like you're right about the range of turning. Oh well, damage done, we'll know better next time.

Obviously this correct ruling was unknown and therefore played no part in the decision making.

The 'Protection from evil' +2 deflection (these are definitely non-summoned Shadows) would have increased her touch AC from 9 to 11, vs two touch attacks of +3 (+5 when flanking). That's still 75% chance to hit for 3.68 str damage, i.e. 2.76 likely str damage. Multiply that by 2 and her 4 str means she's more likely dead. Her decision to wipe one shadow meant that it was without a flanking partner and so the hit % was as above, but with only one attacker she was most likely to survive with 1 str remaining. Needless to say we didn't run these numbers in play, but we are aware of the importance of the number of attacks in determining expected damage. And thus the decision.

Me giving the scenario was to give context to the rule, and I can see how that helps. A rule without being interacted with could be said to not actually exist in any meaningful way. Being on the receiving end of this (i.e. having the level of the character not matter and they therefore are rather casually wiped) does give a feel of legitimacy when I say this rule is bogus.

Has anyone else suffered a similar situation?

Also for curiosity sake, are their any similar low CR but continually deadly creatures in the core rules I need to be aware of? Loss of XP does seriously blow.

 

[Shin Okada]

Also for curiosity sake, are their any similar low CR but continually deadly creatures in the core rules I need to be aware of? Loss of XP does seriously blow.

Something with touch attack or ranged touch attack may potentially kill much higher level foe (read as PCs) with enough number.

A bunch of CR 1/3 Kobolds with some bottles of acid and alchemists fire. Something you should not ignore.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

Couldn't your 11th level paladin turn shadows?

He wipes Shadows.

The terrain he moved to needed to be held as only a few undead had revealed their presence. He needed to use combat expertise to boost his touch AC vs any Shadows emerging from the other flank.

When the Ghouls has revealed their (empty) hand to him he realised the real danger but was too late to do anything.

I'm not saying there weren't bad decisions, and anyway our character make bad decisions all the time.

It was just really quite surprising how this CR3 has an attack that can waste the unwary. In the core MM1 no less.

 

[Shin Okada]

Generally speaking, something which does touch attack, incorporeal touch attack or automatic damages are still considered to be a real threat to higher level characters. Incorporeal touch attack with ability damage or level drain is one of the worst example. Several 1st-level mages with CL1 wand of magic missile (remember, a 1st-level NPC meant to have 900gp worth of gears and that wand is just 750 gp, or 375gp if that is a used one) may kill a high level fighter type from distance, before that iron clad melee monster reach to them.

Usually, if a party has full 4+ members, they are expected to reduce the number of such minor foes before all the enemies attack. But smaller party or a solo adventurer tend to fall before such a mass of minor monsters.

And, there are monsters which some type of specialist cannot handle. Someone who can only use weapons are easily killed by swarm type creatures (immune to weapon damages). A solo wizard will have hard time fighting against something resistant or immune to magic (golems, illithids, etc.). Each character types has their own weakness. And there are always unlucky rolls. And thus, a solo adventurer or a duo is very vulnerable even how high one's level is.

 

[Quartz]

It was just really quite surprising how this CR3 has an attack that can waste the unwary. In the core MM1 no less.

Ah, but that's the point, you're looking at the shadow on its own, not as part of the whole. As Shin Okada has pointed out, it wasn't just two shadows but two shadows, some ghouls, favourable terrain (forest + night) against a one-character party depleted of resources.

 

[frankthedm]

It was just really quite surprising how this CR3 has an attack that can waste the unwary. In the core MM1 no less.

1d6 damage to an ability score is too much. Seasoning an attack with stat damage on the side is one thing, but Whack-a-stat is one of the worst inventions of 3E. Direct Attibute damage was one of the ways heroes were little better off than commoners and encouraged cheese ball spells aimed at ability scores. A huge monster has a crappy dex to represent plodding movement, not so it can be oneshot-able by Sum-Dumass’s Dagger of Dexterity Damage.

In 2e the shadow did 1d4+1 damage and one point of Strength {sort of damage that came back about an hour later]. HP went up significantly in 3E, though honestly STR scores came down at early levels since folks no longer needed to have 17-18(%) STR as in 2E to even have an attack / damage bonus.

IMHO 2d4, 1d10 or maybe 1d12 damage + 2 STR damage would have been FAR better for 3e CR3 shadows to deal on a hit. The main problem with 1d6 STR damage is it is only slightly less dangerous to a high level character than the low level character since stats go up nowhere near as fast as HP. {and then we have the problem of only a few ways to improve touch AC’s].

The chilling touch of a shadow inflicts 2-5 points of damage to its victim as well as draining one point of Strength. Lost Strength points return 2-8 turns after being touched. If a human or demihuman opponent is reduced to zero Strength or zero hit points by a shadow, the shadow has drained the life force and the opponent becomes a shadow as well. The newly formed shadow is then compelled to join the roving band and pursue a life of evil. Other living creatures simply collapse from fatigue (if taken to zero Strength) or fall unconscious (if taken to zero hit points), where they are left to die or are hounded again upon waking.

 

[Shin Okada]

The main problem with 1d6 STR damage is it is only slightly less dangerous to a high level character than the low level character since stats go up nowhere near as fast as HP. {and then we have the problem of only a few ways to improve touch AC’s].

This can be said for all the ability damages. 20th-level character tend to have 20+ times more hp comparing to a 1st-level character (well, they don't get full hp per HD after the 1st level, but tend to have some con boost items). But the difference in a certain ability score is much smaller.

Someone started as a Str 18 fighter can have Str 23 at level 20. Even with +6 enhancement bonus item and +5 from wish that is 34. Less than double of the starting strength. That is only for one's primal ability score. Other scores will remain much lower.

I have been always thinking that ALL the ability damages and drains need at least saving throw. But that is something should be discussed as separate house-rule debate.