Shadows of the Phoenix: SpecOps Teams for A Kingdom of Ashes

[AIM-54]

This thread is to discuss the relative merits of proposed make-ups of the special forces squads to participate in the liberation of Oceanus. Proposals are below:

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=78943&page=26&pp=20

and

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=78943&page=23&pp=20

They reflect two different philosophies (also because having seen the one, I didn't want to duplicate it). A'right, let's hash this out.

 

[AIM-54]

Just to get some things down, I'll go over my philosophy. I had to approach this differently than you, Mik, because otherwise I would just have been duplicating your work and that would be minimally useful. Thus, I took the approach that at the end of the day, we need these guys to be an elite fighting force that can hold its own against larger forces, because things inevitaby go wrong. While stealth and such is vital, and the only weak link there is the cleric because of fewer skill points. But I feel the extra cleric level gives the team more value with the extra spells, both healing, obfuscation and some combat. If that spot is going to go to a Medic type, it needs to be someone with more than just a good Heal check. The extra spells are useful for a variety of other tasks, as well. With only three levels to give these guys, there are going to be limitations. I just think its more important for them to be a viable combat force than one totally devoted to stealth. Anyway, that's all I'll say for now.

 

[Archon]

m.

i agree, but i do think the leadership role and the "trapspringer" role should be divided. i see your guys better suited for the battle field and my guys better suited to wilderness/sabotage missions.
mik

 

[The_Universe]

hey--just sunscribing to the thread. You may want to attach the "HELP!" tag, if you want other board members input.

 

[AIM-54]

Given the reservations, I just want to do an analysis of the actual differences between the two proposals. Mik seems to think there are significant differences, whereas I don't think they are as deep as he does. So:

Attributes:
Blade
Str – 15 +2
Dex – 12 +1
Con – 12 +1
Int – 12 +1
Wis – 13 +1
Cha: 8 -1

Total Bonuses: +5

Soldier
Str: 14 +2
Dex: 14 +2
Con: 12 +1
Int: 12 +1
Wis: 12 +1
Cha: 8 -1

Total Bonuses: +6

Clearly not too much difference here. In fact, my proposal makes a better use of the alloted points, taking the excess from Mik's Wis and Str scores, to push up the vital Dex score...particularly since part of the reason for these guys is sneakiness which is boosted by...surprise...Dex. Now you can make a "role" playing argument, but since these are NPC's and we need to make them as good as possible given the constraints (ie there's not much room for improvement over time), a little min-maxing is required. It was hard to approach this in a novel way, because with the same goal in mind, of course Mik had already blazed a trail. All I could do is improve the efficiency of point distribution. Which I did.

Feats:
Blade
Track
Endurance
Improved Unarmed Strike
Quick Draw


Soldier
Track
Endurance
Improved Unarmed Strike
Quick Draw
Improved Initiative


Not too much difference here. With the same general goal, Mik blazed the with his feats, I just had to add one, given my team is human, and I felt the melee guys could use with the improved first strike capability.

Skills:
Blade Ranks/Skill Points
Bluff +0 1/2
Climb +5 3/3
Disguise +1 2/4
Hide +8 7/7
Knowledge: Nature +8 7/7
Listen +5 2/2
Move Silently +8 7/7
Search +8 5/5
Spot +5 2/2
Survival +8 (+10 to Track) 7/7
Tumble +2 1/2

=48 Skill Points
But according to my calculations, a 3rd level elven ranger would have (6+1)*4+7+7 skill points=42. So there's 6 extra Skill Points that shouldn't be in there (I have taken into account racial bonuses)

Soldier Ranks/SkillPoints
Bluff+0 1/2
Disguise+1 2/4
Escape Artist+3 1/2
Gather Information+1 2/4
Heal+4 3/3
Hide+7 5/5
Knowledge:Nature +4 3/3
Listen+5 4/4
Move Silently+7 5/5
Search+5 4/4
Spot+5 4/4
Survival+5 4/4
Tumble+4 2/2


=46 Skill Points
3rd level human ranger should have (6+1)*4+4+8+8=48. So technically, I've screwed myself on the math.

Even without these errors (on both sides), they're similarly capable. The human version is in fact more capable because the extra SP give it some more capabilities outside of the sneakery and combat. And some of them are purely RPing skills...like Escape Artist and another two points to burn (probably to Hide+Move Silently or Gather Information or Bluff)

By this analysis I'd say they're pretty even and capable, with maybe a slight advantage to the humans based on their extra feat and skill points. The Elven racial bonuses cut that down a bit, as well.

 

[The_Universe]

Given the reservations, I just want to do an analysis of the actual differences between the two proposals. Mik seems to think there are significant differences, whereas I don't think they are as deep as he does. So:

Attributes:
Blade
Str – 15 +2
Dex – 12 +1
Con – 12 +1
Int – 12 +1
Wis – 13 +1
Cha: 8 -1

Total Bonuses: +5

Soldier
Str: 14 +2
Dex: 14 +2
Con: 12 +1
Int: 12 +1
Wis: 12 +1
Cha: 8 -1

Total Bonuses: +6

Clearly not too much difference here. In fact, my proposal makes a better use of the alloted points, taking the excess from Mik's Wis and Str scores, to push up the vital Dex score...particularly since part of the reason for these guys is sneakiness which is boosted by...surprise...Dex. Now you can make a "role" playing argument, but since these are NPC's and we need to make them as good as possible given the constraints (ie there's not much room for improvement over time), a little min-maxing is required. It was hard to approach this in a novel way, because with the same goal in mind, of course Mik had already blazed a trail. All I could do is improve the efficiency of point distribution. Which I did.

Feats:
Blade
Track
Endurance
Improved Unarmed Strike
Quick Draw


Soldier
Track
Endurance
Improved Unarmed Strike
Quick Draw
Improved Initiative


Not too much difference here. With the same general goal, Mik blazed the with his feats, I just had to add one, given my team is human, and I felt the melee guys could use with the improved first strike capability.

Skills:
Blade Ranks/Skill Points
Bluff +0 1/2
Climb +5 3/3
Disguise +1 2/4
Hide +8 7/7
Knowledge: Nature +8 7/7
Listen +5 2/2
Move Silently +8 7/7
Search +8 5/5
Spot +5 2/2
Survival +8 (+10 to Track) 7/7
Tumble +2 1/2

=48 Skill Points
But according to my calculations, a 3rd level elven ranger would have (6+1)*4+7+7 skill points=42. So there's 6 extra Skill Points that shouldn't be in there (I have taken into account racial bonuses)

Soldier Ranks/SkillPoints
Bluff+0 1/2
Disguise+1 2/4
Escape Artist+3 1/2
Gather Information+1 2/4
Heal+4 3/3
Hide+7 5/5
Knowledge:Nature +4 3/3
Listen+5 4/4
Move Silently+7 5/5
Search+5 4/4
Spot+5 4/4
Survival+5 4/4
Tumble+4 2/2


=46 Skill Points
3rd level human ranger should have (6+1)*4+4+8+8=48. So technically, I've screwed myself on the math.

Even without these errors (on both sides), they're similarly capable. The human version is in fact more capable because the extra SP give it some more capabilities outside of the sneakery and combat. And some of them are purely RPing skills...like Escape Artist and another two points to burn (probably to Hide+Move Silently or Gather Information or Bluff)

By this analysis I'd say they're pretty even and capable, with maybe a slight advantage to the humans based on their extra feat and skill points. The Elven racial bonuses cut that down a bit, as well.

Your analysis rocks the hizzizzouse.

 

[AIM-54]

Now for the analysis of the ranged units. Again, not too much in the way of differences. The human version is a little more efficient on the dispersion of attribute points, but the differences aren’t too severe.

Striker
Str – 10 +0
Dex – 17 +3
Con – 12 +1
Int – 12 +1
Wis – 13 +1
Cha - 8 -1

Archer
Str: 12 +1
Dex: 16 +3
Con: 12 +1
Int: 12 +1
Wis: 12 +1
Cha: 8 -1


Precisely as with the melee unit, all I’ve done is clean up the inefficient allocations of attribute points, making them slightly more useful in melee…which as a special forces team, should be the case.

Feats:
Striker
Track
Endurance
Precise Shot
Point Blank Shot

Archer
Track
Endurance
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Far Shot

Exactly as with the melee unit, Mik led the way, I just had an extra feat to play with.

Skills:
Striker Ranks/Skill Points
Bluff +0 1/2
Climb +3 3/3
Disguise +1 2/4
Hide +10 7/7
Knowledge: Nature +8 7/7
Listen +5 2/2
Move Silently +10 7/7
Search +8 5/5
Spot +5 2/2
Survival +8 (+10 to Track) 7/7
Tumble +4 1/2

=48 Skill Points. As with the melee unit, this one is also 6 points over. But, mine will probably be 2 under.

Archer Ranks/Skill Points
Bluff +0 1/2
Disguise +1 2/4
Escape Artist+4 1/2
Gather Information+1 2/4
Heal+3 2/2
Hide+7 4/4
Knowledge: Nature+4 3/3
Listen+5 4/4
Move Silently+6 3/3
Search+4 3/3
Spot+4 3/3
Survival+6 5/5
Tumble+5 2/2

=41 Skill Points. Clearly I am not a mathematician. Wow, with 7 more points to play with…probably would throw a couple into Heal, Gather Information, Move Silently and then Search and Spot. Geesh.

Keeping the mathematical errors in mind, both units begin to look remarkably similar. The main difference is the extra skill points the humans get. So, like the melee unit, there’s not that much difference. Attribute points are more economically divided and the archer unit sacrifices some of the higher stealth points for other skills that make it more useful, overall, in the scheme of SpecOps missions.

 

[Archon]

m

i used elves because in all likely hood that is who will be in the squads. there are many more elves in the area then humans.
also, the six extra skill points are the synergy bonuses you get from high ranks in skills like "Search" and "Knowledge: Nature". Archon has many of these synergies and i found that these soldiers could make great use of them. so yes they do not get as many skill points as the humans, but their total is equal to the Humans because of allocation to synergy giving skills. i used this same technique in the other Shadows as well. the human extra feat is handy, but i valued the elven bonuses to all applicable Ranger "Notice" skills and the elven night vision over the human's one feat.
as far as the attribute allocation goes. i did not move around any points, because i did not know that was allowed. i merely used the 15,14,13,12,10,8 stats as base, allocated them then applied racial bonuses.
mik

 

[AIM-54]

Now, the healer/cleric unit is much different between the two proposals. It reflects a differing philosophy, whereby Mik puts priority on stealth skills, whereas I chose to sacrifice high abilities there, in return for more spellcasting abilities and a more robust unit capable of fighting if it comes to that. But, to the analysis!

Mender
Str - 8 -1
Dex - 13 +1
Con - 8 -1
Int - 12 +1
Wis - 15 +2
Cha - 14 +2

Cleric
Str: 12 +1
Dex: 12 +1
Con: 10 0
Int: 11 0
Wis: 15 +2
Cha: 12 +1

Not much can be done with this, for the most part, because the Mender unit is two attribute points lower than it should be. This template gives you 72 points to work with, while Mik has used only 70. Apparently, we really suck at math. That said, I have also, inexplicably, violated my efficiency rule, apparently so that the cleric will be able to cast spells from a higher level. Given the weaknesses in the template, I have now decided that was stupid and would, therefore, take the point from Wisdom and put it into Intelligence, as the cleric is short on the Skill Points, anyway.

Feats:
Mender
Track
Dodge
Mobility

Cleric
Improved Turning
Improved Shield Bash
Rapid Reload

This is interesting, as it shows two completely different philosophies. The Mender relies on speed and dexterity to avoid damage via its feats, whereas the Cleric has a more offensive purpose, with the shield present for avoiding damage. Improved Turning just makes sense, given the significant presence of undead in the scenario. The other two ensure that the Cleric remains capable of engaging in battle should it come down to that.

Skills:
Mender Ranks/Skill Points
Disguise +3 1/2
Hide +6 5/5
Knowledge: Nature +2 1/1
Knowledge: Religion +2 1/1
Listen +5 1/1
Move Silently +6 5/5
Search +3 1/1
Spot +8 4/4
Survival +6 4/4
Tumble +2 1/1
Diplomacy +5 4/4
Heal +10 8/8

=37 Skill Points. Now to maximize Skill Points, we’ll say they take Ranger as their first level: (6+1)*4+3+3=34 Skill Points. Which means, we’re three over here. Also, I believe Heal cannot be at 8 ranks, because the overall level is still only third and the rules state it’s your level +4=Rank maximum, in this case 7. If there’s a House Rule about this, I may have forgotten it…my current character has so few skill points it’s a non-issue.

Cleric Ranks/Skill Points
Bluff+2 1/2
Diplomacy+3 2/2
Gather Information+2 1/1
Heal+4 2/2
Hide+3 2/4
Move Silently+3 2/4
Survival+3 1/1

=16 Skill Points. As a 3rd level cleric: (2*4)+4+3+3=18. Once again, poor math skills strike! I’d throw the two extra points, both into Heal or into Hide or Move Silently. But with the changes I indicated above: (2+1)*4+4+4+4=22 Skill Points. And the Cleric becomes a little more flexible. The main reason for the third level of cleric is the extra spells. I think those become a more valuable asset than another few points in the skills department.

I’ll also take this moment to say I like the heavier armor and shield idea simply for the picture of the cleric caring for wounded while taking cover behind the shield. Heh.

Basically we’ve got two different philosophies (math errors aside), the cleric with more hefty spellcasting, but less stealth and the Ranger/Cleric. Pretty much comes down to what you’re looking for. My revised cleric will be a little better in the stealth department, as well.

 

[AIM-54]

i used elves because in all likely hood that is who will be in the squads. there are many more elves in the area then humans.
also, the six extra skill points are the synergy bonuses you get from high ranks in skills like "Search" and "Knowledge: Nature". Archon has many of these synergies and i found that these soldiers could make great use of them. so yes they do not get as many skill points as the humans, but their total is equal to the Humans because of allocation to synergy giving skills. i used this same technique in the other Shadows as well. the human extra feat is handy, but i valued the elven bonuses to all applicable Ranger "Notice" skills and the elven night vision over the human's one feat.
as far as the attribute allocation goes. i did not move around any points, because i did not know that was allowed. i merely used the 15,14,13,12,10,8 stats as base, allocated them then applied racial bonuses.
mik

Yes, but the regular army, where most of these guys are going to be coming from has a significant human presence. Synergy bonuses? I must not have the book for that stuff. Sounds like more overpowered DnD crappiness to me.
Hmmm...I assumed that the heroic system took into account racial bonuses, so I saw your changes and assumed you moved stuff around. I guess that's ultimately a DM decision, though.
My ultimate argument is that all that aside, when it comes down to it, there are no significant differences in the capabilities of the two squads. My variations tend to have skills that are broadly useful, so that each individual unit is more useful in the range of tasks, whereas yours are more focused on the sneaking. Sneaking is ultimately a top priority, but I feel that more combat power combined with a wider range of skills makes for a better unit than too much focus on simply the sneaking aspect.