Shaman AC too low?

[fba827]

Sure it is low, but I think it's on purpose. It can do a heck of a lot of strong things (being able to grant healing without the cost of the target's surge is one of them).

If you want to be on the front lines then you have to invest in the feats or magic items to do so. That's just how I view it anyway.

Edit: in case it needs to be said, yes, I have played a shaman for at least one game so far. And I would gladly continue playing him when I get a chance to again. So I have a little experience with the class and I did like it.

 

[webrunner]

The AC of a shaman is low because the shamans place in the battle is taken by his spirit companion.

The AC of the spirit companion is also low, but remember it's a) immune to attacks that aren't just melee or ranged, b) immune to ongoing damage, and c) immune to all attacks below a certain amount of damage and d) if it does, the shaman only take at most 5+1/2 level damage and e) Is immune to effects of terrain

It's a different kind of damage mitigation but it's damage mitigation nonetheless.. next time you play a shaman mentally consider if your AC was higher and you wer ein your spirit companion's place, how much damage you would be taking in comparison?

You dont even need line of sight or effect to the targets of spirit attacks.. they're considered from the spirit.

If you're sitting out of the battle, even behind walls, the amount of damage you're going to take is actually going to be pretty darn small, considering....

You could keep a shaman in a suitcase and just let him pop his head out to re-summon the companion, in fact..

 

[vhailor]

OK let's give the shaman the worst AC. But 13? Or should everyone spend a feat to take chainmail. Note that his spirit companion will be in the center of the battle and with AC 13 an attack with roll 6+ will always hit. Even if AC 13 is enough, I don't think a CON shaman will ever feel safe.

 

[jgsugden]

If you don't raise int or dex as you increase level, you need to wear heavy armor if you don't want your AC to turn you into a beach ball at a Beach Boys concert. It is a simple fact in 4E - you either need heavy armor, increasing int/dex or a class feature to avoid seeing AC get ridiculously bad.

However, being a beach ball isn't necessarily a bad thing *if* the beach ball can survive being abused.

Assuming the shaman stands behind the front lines and sends his spirit into melee, these are a few fun facts:

Imagine a melee fighter that:

1.) Ignores bursts and blasts.
2.) Reduces all damage to 0 if it is less than 10 + 1/2 level. If it is equal to or more than that amount, the amage is reduced to 5+1/2 level insteadand the creature disappears until the start of its next turn, at which time it loses a minor action and can - as a free action - teleport across the battle field.
3.) Ignores stunning, dazing, being knocked prone, etc...

Pretty awesome, right? Sure, that disappearing thing can backfire and open a hole for enemies to pass through, but if you have another defender in the group, that situation can be mitigated.

That is what the spirit brings to the table as a melee force. In addition to that, you get to pile on some healing and a little controller ability. Nice, huh?

And, that melee force gets an old school cohort in the form of a shaman that can run around opening doors, providing flanking to help finish off nearly dead enemies, etc...

The original point of this thread was that the shaman's defense was too low... so what? So what if he gets hit too much. A well played shaman should probably see more attacks aimed at his spirit than at his person. If that is true, so what if the attacks hit all of the time? You can ignore the secondary effects of the hits, and the damage you lose is - at worst - reduced to 5 + 1/2 level each round.

Heck, I might think it nice to pick up stealth as a skill for a shaman just to help him hide in the back during combat...

 

[abyssaldeath]

Chain requires prof with leather or hide.

Wow, I had no idea. I never noticed that OR before. Thanks.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

Wow, I had no idea. I never noticed that OR before. Thanks.

Yeah, for a lot of classes Chain is trivially easy to get. Even if they start with just cloth, it's only two feats to get into the Heavy Armors. While Chain might not mesh well with most people's idea of what a "Primal" class should wear, I think it's okay since it's not nearly as heavy duty as the other heavy armors. Plus, you could always reflavor it a bit if you wanted, and say it's some sort of tougher, but less agile version of Hide armor.

 

[dravot]

I just started a panther shaman. I opted to avoid chain, because I didn't want to spend that many points in STR, and because I wanted to maintain maximum mobility, and chain would have dropped that a bit.

It's my intention to plan on items and powers to avoid being hit as much as possible. =)

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Note also, though a few posters sound like they have forgotten this, the spirit companion is a conjuration, it does NOT provoke OA. It is a spell effect, not a creature and thus technically is neither an enemy nor an ally. It also cannot be used for flanking for essentially the same reason (there are powers that modify this though).

Given that area and ranged attacks cannot affect the spirit companion either, it really is not likely to be targeted all that much. In most combats the enemy gains relatively little by attacking it. At best they do a small amount of damage to the shaman, probably a good bit less than their attack would do to some other party member, and cost the shaman a minor action, which probably isn't a big deal.

The only times I can imagine a spirit companion being attacked is possibly if it is positioned in a spot that the enemy really needs it to go away from RIGHT NOW (remember it will likely be right back there next round). Other than that monsters may randomly take a swing at it when they have nothing better to do or to try to get it out of their way so they can move, but that's about the size of it. So really the thing is hardly a vulnerability to the caster at all.

Note that not only could you have chain proficiency, but you could also pick up parrying dagger. Technically it probably doesn't count as a dagger implement (only rogues can treat it as a dagger according to AV) but you can always try to get your DM to give you that one Failing that you can always pick up light shield proficiency on top of chain proficiency. It has the same str prereq and gives you another point of AC and maybe more importantly a point of reflex, which you'll also be hurting for.

 

[Cadfan]

What was the over/under on how long it would take for the "This class sucks because it doesn't have the AC of a Paladin/ HP of a Paladin/stickiness of a fighter/damage of a striker" threads to start?

The low starting AC isn't precisely a problem.

The fact that AC then scales at 1/2 the rate of other characters, on the other hand, makes things get worse as you level. That probably is a problem.

And the fact that you can get chainmail proficiency for the low, low cost of 1 feat and a 13 strength (the protecting shaman will already have the con) does make it kind of a no brainer, particularly as you advance in level, gain tier bonuses to strength so that you don't even have to start with the 13, and see your AC fall further behind as you improve constitution, the score that fuels your class abilities, instead of dexterity or intelligence, which do next to nothing for you except improve AC, which you can get more efficiently by spending a feat on chain.

Editted to add: That paragraph was all one sentence. I sincerely apologize to everyone in this thread.

 

[DracoSuave]

You dont even need line of sight or effect to the targets of spirit attacks.. they're considered from the spirit.

Line of effect is concidered from Turducken. Line of sight is concidered from the shaman. Conjurations, PHBII.