Shapechange is HOW Epic?

[Thanee]

Can you shapechange into the Tarrasque?

I always thought that would not be possible, since it is a unique being, not a general type of creature!

But yeah, even without the Epic Level stuff, Shapechange is already overpowered!

I still think (had a thread about this recently) it'd be wise to extrapolate the Polymorph Other errata to Shapechange and limit it to any creature (probably (but not necessarily) including Constructs, Elementals, Outsiders and Undead) with 25 or fewer HD (or your own HD, if lower than 25).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Dark Dragon]

Now that is funny...

"DM I turn into a 200' diameter Black Hole!"

WHAT!!!!!

lol

IIRC, a black hole has a weight beyond good and evil, so, unfortunatly, it won't work

Thanee, good idea to limit Shapechange with a HD cap. I agree that a wiz/sor should only be able to polymorph into a creature he has already encountered. This is the case for druids: they can only take the form of animals they've seen (see MoW).

 

[Ezrael]

There's also the very real possibility that black holes don't exist in the game universe (if campaign took place inside a hollow earth that was placed on the elemental plane of earth, as an example) and that your DM could just say "And how does Skrellian the Magnificent know about black holes?"

Besides, a sphere of annilhilation would be more in-genre for D&D anyway.

 

[JLXC]

First... the Black Hole was a joke folks... come on!

Second, this is a real question for DM's who have higher level campaigns! I am running a 17th level campaign now and Shapechange is available, though nobody has used it. Scary stuff.

Limits... I wonder if WOTC has anything to say about it?

 

[ashockney]

The horror!

I can't believe my players didn't catch that one.

Wow, that's got abuse written all over it.

Per the spell from the PH (I can't speak to the SRD or Errata), it is "per Polymorph Other" except you can "assume the form of any single creature of less than diety status (including unique dragon types or the like) or any single object."

So the loophole is built right into the spell. I would suggest a cap on the shapechange spell equal to the HD of the creature. Even an 18th level wizzie changing into a Great Wyrm Red and getting his SR, Str, Dex, and Con is too much for me. HD of the creature still leaves plenty of silly and sick options, and will grow with the character into Epic levels.

 

[Elric]

Jeremy- an item of +30 on one of the Knowledge skill checks is only 18000 gp. Get ready for those Prismatic Dragons

 

[Xeriar]

I like the 'creature HD no more than wizzie's HD' - same thing for druids, I think. You can get the power, you just have to wait awhile.

Of course, what is an objects Hit Dice? I don't want eight million cubic feet of platinum throwing its weight around, either.

 

[Thanee]

I like the 'creature HD no more than wizzie's HD' - same thing for druids, I think. You can get the power, you just have to wait awhile.

That's basically why I think one could just use the Polymorph Other errata (which also introduced a hit die cap equal to the caster's hit dice (or polymorphed creature's hit dice)) and apply it to Shapechange!

Sure, it does say you can take the shape of any creature less than deity status (which would - compared to Polymorph Other - allow Constructs, Elementals, Outsiders and Undead as well), but it also says as Polymorph Other, so this isn't even a big stretch to say it has the same HD cap (just 'heightened' to a 9th level spell)!

And the 25 HD total cap would just make sense considering the general spell caps (15 for a 4th level spell, i.e. Polymorph Other, 25 for a 9th level spell).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Vecna]

If you use the "as PO" rule, the HD cap is 15.

 

[Destil]

Feh. Falling gold is nothing. I'm shapchanging into a sphere of annihilation, then rolling my way along the outer planes.