Shapechange is HOW Epic?

[Thanee]

If you use the "as PO" rule, the HD cap is 15.

I know that... that's why I said to extrapolate on the Polymorph Other errata.

The 15 HD cap is because PO is a 4th level spell. For a 9th level spell the corresponding cap would be 25 HD.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Darkness]

I know that... that's why I said to extrapolate on the Polymorph Other errata.

The 15 HD cap is because PO is a 4th level spell. For a 9th level spell the corresponding cap would be 25 HD.

Bye
Thanee

Why exactly 25, BTW?

 

[Ezrael]

First... the Black Hole was a joke folks... come on!

Sorry. Sometimes I miss these things. It might have been the gut-churning fear that someday I would be running a game and someone would actually try and *do* that which caused me to react so quickly.

I mean, I have seen people attempt to use Wish spells for all sorts of incredibly not good effects. Yeesh.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Hmm... It might be best not to allow casters to change into something that they don't know.

You mean, as it's written in the spell itself?

You can become just about everything you are familiar with.

Also, it works....

As polymorph other

.... so the errata for PO also applies to Shapechange. The...

except this spell enables you to assume the form of any single creature of less than deity status or any single object

...could be understanded as contradicting to any HD limit. But it's a good thing and should find its way into errata.

 

[Mr Fidgit]

this may help a little (or not...) --from ENWorld's own errata page!

Further limitations on size and hit dice [for shapechange] from Skip Williams: The new form can range in size from Diminutive to one size larger than the subject's normal form, and can have no more hit dice than you have, or that the subject has, (which ever is greater), and in any case the assumed form cannot have more than 15 hit dice.

 

[Thanee]

Why exactly 25, BTW?

Because of the same reason why PO has 15 HD. The dice caps.

I know, they are mainly meant for damage, but I'm sure, that's where the 15 HD cap for PO comes from!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

except this spell enables you to assume the form of any single creature of less than deity status or any single object

...could be understanded as contradicting to any HD limit. But it's a good thing and should find its way into errata.

It could also only mean, that you CAN assume the form of Constructs, Elementals, Outsiders, Undead, and just about anything.

Sure, it can be understood in just about any way, as it's so vague (and also pre-errata). That's why I had opened that tread recently, where I asked how the PO errata affects Shapechange, but there was no real consensus gained back then.

Further limitations on size and hit dice [for shapechange] from Skip Williams: The new form can range in size from Diminutive to one size larger than the subject's normal form, and can have no more hit dice than you have, or that the subject has, (which ever is greater), and in any case the assumed form cannot have more than 15 hit dice.

This here seems to imply exactly that, that the above quote from the spell description only drops the restriction for type, not the other restrictions, Polymorph Other has set.

Altho, I still think the HD cap should be 25, just because it's a 9th level spell compared to a 4th level spell!

Bye
Thanee

 

[wolff96]

I like the 'creature HD no more than wizzie's HD' - same thing for druids, I think. You can get the power, you just have to wait awhile.

Actually, that isn't true from the druid side.

The errata for Wild Shape has no hit dice caps. Only Greater Wildshape (the Shifter ability) is hit dice limited. This is actually a whole other problem -- the high level wildshaping feats offered in the ELH make druids evil.

Granted, wizards are nasty while Shapechanged into dragons. But druids can use a few feats and turn into dragons... with all the supernatural abilities! Worse yet, the combination of Gargantuan and Collossal wildshape combined with "Improved Elemental Wildshape" means that a druid could become a Primal Elemental -- or a Tempest (the four-elemental storm, not the PrC).

The limitation is the same as it has always been -- you must be familiar with a form before you can change into one. I honestly don't think that there is a problem with Shapechange or the Enhanced wild shape abilities of the druid. The DM is the one that controls what the PCs have seen and are familiar with. As long as you aren't constantly showering the PCs with bizarre and fanciful creatures, they have no means to gain these forms.

I really don't think there is a problem.

 

[Stalker0]

The limitation is the same as it has always been -- you must be familiar with a form before you can change into one. I honestly don't think that there is a problem with Shapechange or the Enhanced wild shape abilities of the druid. The DM is the one that controls what the PCs have seen and are familiar with. As long as you aren't constantly showering the PCs with bizarre and fanciful creatures, they have no means to gain these forms.

I really don't think there is a problem.

The problem is if I have a guy in my campaign who uses shapechange then basically I can't use any cool monsters because I'm so afraid that from then on he'll be 4 times as powerful.

I mean this one spell limits your options as a dm a lot, either you can choose to never have monsters of great power (boring as heck or you work really hard to then constantly limit that character's power (make the player mad and being a pain in the butt for you).


I'd rule that in order to shapechange into something you have to do more than simply see it. you have to study it for a while, meaning you might have to capture the creature. And if a player of mine worked hard and came up with a good way to capture one, then the reward of being able to shapechange into that is alright in my book.

More work for more power I always say.

 

[mirivor]

The key to this spell is the "any form the wizard is familiar with". The dungeonmaster should probably define what the term means. Just a tidbit in defense of my favorite spell. Also, limiting it to the wizard's HD would be uncool. Summon Monster VIIII can get a Solar, which has 34 HD.... and the Solar ROCKS! I admit that the spell may need reigned in, however.