Shapechange is HOW Epic?

[Jovis]

just a slight correction, JLXC.

with shapechange you don't get supernatural or spell-like abilities. DR is a supernatural ability. (but SR is extraordinary)

Where is it noted that DR is a supernatural ability?
For that matter, where is SR noted as an extraordinary ability.

If that is the case, it seems wrong to me. For an attacking creature to get over the DR of another creature, it needs to have a DR level equal or greater then the targets (as per MM). So if you shapechanged into a stone golem to fight another stone golem, you would be unable to harm it while he pummled you.

That doesn't seem to go with the flavor of polymorph other and shapechange.

 

[dcollins]

Jeremy- an item of +30 on one of the Knowledge skill checks is only 18000 gp. Get ready for those Prismatic Dragons

Only if the DM always allows arbitrary specification of any "New Items" by the players, which he/she should not do. There is no such +30 Knowledge or Spellcraft item in any of the core books, and the rules were not balanced assuming the existence of such items.

 

[mirivor]

Just about all Special Qualities can be found in the MM. In this case, Page 9 of said MM qualifies DR as supernatural ability and spell resistance as an extraordinary one. Not receiving DR is one of the things that helps to balance Shapechange.

 

[wolff96]

Only if the DM always allows arbitrary specification of any "New Items" by the players, which he/she should not do. There is no such +30 Knowledge or Spellcraft item in any of the core books, and the rules were not balanced assuming the existence of such items.

There is in the ELH. I think that's the point he was trying to make. Shapechange is powerful -- what 9th level spell isn't? -- but it isn't broken until you get epic creatures. If you've got epic creatures, you must be using the ELH rules...

Where is it noted that DR is a supernatural ability?

Monster Manual, Page 9, under the "Special Qualities" section. Damage reduction is supernatural while Spell Resistance is extraordinary. The only exceptions are the Barbarian class ability and the Dwarven Defender class ability.

 

[JLXC]

That Skip Williams eratta to shapechange is CRAP. No more than 15 HD? RRRIIIGGGHHHHTTTTTT. Since shapechange is 9th level the minimum caster level is 17 which is already over that. Stupid call. Anyways... HD limit of Caster level +5 or 10 might be doable. I was just worried about the silly things like "Iron Collosus" from the Epic book, built in magic immunity and anti-magic field and 70 AC and outrageous damage.....

I think limiting it to "known" stuff is good too....

I have read one too many "Turn into a bird, fly up, then turn into a 200' x 200' block of Adamantine and dropping" crap. Shapechange is cool, but such silly abuses should be stomped out by DM's everywhere.

 

[Kraedin]

Any fix to shapechange that only add a hitdie cap won't address the biggest problem: turning into objects. As long as I can turn into 9,632,000,000 lbs. of gold, the spell is still broken. As broken as gate and simulacrum, in fact.

 

[Vecna]

this may help a little (or not...) --from ENWorld's own errata page!

Further limitations on size and hit dice [for shapechange] from Skip Williams: The new form can range in size from Diminutive to one size larger than the subject's normal form, and can have no more hit dice than you have, or that the subject has, (which ever is greater), and in any case the assumed form cannot have more than 15 hit dice.

The limits are for PO.
The only reference to shapechange in ENWorld errata center is:

What about the shapechange spell? Shapechange is 9th level, I'd say it wouldn't be limited in that way.

 

[James McMurray]

quote:
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Originally posted by dcollins


Only if the DM always allows arbitrary specification of any "New Items" by the players, which he/she should not do. There is no such +30 Knowledge or Spellcraft item in any of the core books, and the rules were not balanced assuming the existence of such items.
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There is in the ELH.

Actually, there aren't any plus to knowledge items in the ELH. There is a +10 to spellcraft item, but it is much more expensive than the 2000gp that the formula would give you (I believe is clocks in at 110,000gp).

 

[Thanee]

Any fix to shapechange that only add a hitdie cap won't address the biggest problem: turning into objects. As long as I can turn into 9,632,000,000 lbs. of gold, the spell is still broken. As broken as gate and simulacrum, in fact.

Well, I have no idea how to address this other than just not to abuse the ability to turn into objects.

Maybe limit the possible size of the object dramatically (i.e. no bigger than yourself)!?

Or maybe just drop that part altogether, the ability to turn into almost any creature (even with the HD cap) would still be more than enough for a 9th level spell!

Bye
Thanee

 

[mkletch]

Actually, there aren't any plus to knowledge items in the ELH. There is a +10 to spellcraft item, but it is much more expensive than the 2000gp that the formula would give you (I believe is clocks in at 110,000gp).

Actually, that item gives an insight bonus to spellcraft checks, so it will stack with the standard circumstance bonus that is listed in the item creation tables. A +10 circumstance bonus to spellcraft checks (which seems to be the non-epic maximum just by virtue of the fact that there are none higher except jumping) would cost 2000gp (bonus squared x 20gp). It seems epic items can usually go twice as high or more, but cost 10x. So a +20 circumstance bonus epic item would require an epic item creation feat and cost 80000gp (bonus squared x 200gp). You could easily add that ability to a Rod of Epic Spellcasting for 160kgp, for a total item value of 405,400gp.

Assuming you go by the tables...

-Fletch!