Shapechange Nerfed by my DM?

[Hypersmurf]

But Shapechange actually grants Su abilities now?

Yup.

Like the Balor's Vorpal Sword [Su]

-Hyp.

 

[Epametheus]

Yup.

Like the Balor's Vorpal Sword [Su]

Sweet

(though Vorpal Swords really shouldn't be listed as a Su ability, unless the Balors are calling the things into existence)

 

[Hypersmurf]

(though Vorpal Swords really shouldn't be listed as a Su ability, unless the Balors are calling the things into existence)

You noticed?

-Hyp.

 

[Otterscrubber]

Not to de-rail my own thread but I think I remember reading somewhere that it was intentionally made (Su) to keep greedy PCs from summoning Balors, killing them and stockpiling Vorpal weapons. So yes, with 3.5 the Balor is supposed to pull it out of thin air, not unlike the way it was represented in LotR. Of course now PC will just summong Solars and kill them for their +5 dancing greatswords, although Solars are a bit tougher than Balors so it won't be as easy.

Uh-oh, I said Solars are tougher than Balors. That's de-railing my thread twice in one post...

 

[James McMurray]

I personally lke the Balor sword being (Su). It makes it a special part of being a Balor as opposed to just something that the demon lords can appaentl crank out at will an then hand to anyone who makes it to the exalted status of Balor.

 

[jgsugden]

You also have the problem that a human with 17 wizard levels who shapechanges into a fire giant, say, is now a fire giant with 17 wizard levels.

So his ECL is, pretty much, Fire Giant + 17.

If you limit him to changing into forms whose ECL is no greater than his caster level, then he's limited to forms with no LA, since the ECL of any form he takes will include his character level...

-Hyp.

Everything you say is true. But, you're looking at total power and commenting that total power would increase from casting the spell. I'm not trying to negate the benefit of the spell ... I'm trying to restrict it to abilities that make sense.

If you only allow powers that are available to creatures with an ECL equal to or less than the caster, you limit the powers gained to powers that are not too powerful for a PC of that level. The character may gain a bunch of abilities, but none of those abilities is too strong for the character.

Using LA instead of ECL is another good idea. I'll play around with it a bit.

 

[Norfleet]

I personally lke the Balor sword being (Su). It makes it a special part of being a Balor as opposed to just something that the demon lords can appaentl crank out at will an then hand to anyone who makes it to the exalted status of Balor.

But now it's not necessary at all, since anyone who makes it to the exalted status of Balor gets it as a class feature.

 

[James McMurray]

Isn't that pretty much what I said?

 

[thorian]

Shapechange has got to be one of the most unbalanced spells in the game. What other spell can give you +20-30 on three attributes, +23 natural armor, true seeing, antimagic cone, the ability to perform two full round actions in one round, incorporeality, unlimited access to many spells (as Su abilities), etc. etc. With the huge number of creatures available, the possibilities are almost endless. IMC, we removed Su abilities and limited the benefit to non-epic limits which means no more than +6 to an ability or +5 to natural armor, etc. The forms allowed are of course only those that the caster has some significant knowledge of via combat or study. It has helped a lot, and we made commensurate restrictions to polymorph and alter self as well. Our party has gone back to looking like themselves and not a party of firbolgs, pit fiends, balors, etc.

 

[Stalker0]

Shapechange has got to be one of the most unbalanced spells in the game. What other spell can give you +20-30 on three attributes, +23 natural armor, true seeing, antimagic cone, the ability to perform two full round actions in one round, incorporeality, unlimited access to many spells (as Su abilities), etc. etc.

I'd say it should at least be like tenser's transformation in that you can't cast other spells while in the new form.