Shapechange - Too powerful?

[Plane Sailing]

If you compare two parties, and one mage leads off with shapechange you would expect the other mage to do the same if it was truly too powerful to miss up. But the other mage might equally start with Disjunction (spoiling the other persons shapechange and all their magic items and buffs) or with TimeStop (and lay down a huge barrage of useful stuff or suitable preparations).

I'm just thinking that there are other 9th level spells which are just as good an option for combat (for instance).

 

[Will]

Treebore: By that logic, a spell that obliterates continents is fine, because they earned it and it's jaw dropping.

I really don't see how 'well, 9th level spells are powerful' is a valid response. Now, pointing out how powerful specific 9th level spells are, that's a bit more useful.

Disjunction, for example, is pretty powerful. One good question would be 'can Shapechange do something similar, and do it more often?' I'm not aware of any Disjoin monsters, but that would be an example of comparison.

 

[EricNoah]

(Our high level group is in the process right now of coming up with a house rule for Disjunction because, as our DM points out, if we use it against NPCs they will use it against us and that would probably totally suck. One house rule suggested is that the casting time be increased significantly so it's not great as a combat spell but still good as a utility spell. Ok, now back to Shapechange!)

 

[Treebore]

Treebore: By that logic, a spell that obliterates continents is fine, because they earned it and it's jaw dropping.

I really don't see how 'well, 9th level spells are powerful' is a valid response. Now, pointing out how powerful specific 9th level spells are, that's a bit more useful.

Disjunction, for example, is pretty powerful. One good question would be 'can Shapechange do something similar, and do it more often?' I'm not aware of any Disjoin monsters, but that would be an example of comparison.

Will,

I view your response as I don't want to compare apples so I'll throw in how rediculous it is to compare apples to chow mein to prove how rediculous it is to compare apples.

9th level spells are powerful because it took you long time to "earn" the right to be able to cast them, plus you are playing a character that is supposed to be powerful. If you feel high level characters should be castrated instead of becoming powerful that is your game. My game says you become powerful.

Plus Shapechange is a progression of the polymorph power chain. There is an inferred progression within the game mechanics from the lower level polymorph spells to this "ultimate" polymorphing spell. It is an earned, and deserved, culmination of magical power.

I have been able to deal with it just fine as a DM. Yes, it is a powerful spell. It is very versatile, and can be frustrating to deal with. It should be, it is a 9th level spell. Such a power should not be "easy" to handle.

Just because a DM has problems handling such a spell doesn't mean it is too powerful or broken, it just means the DM needs to become more resourceful themselves. Resourcefullness isn't nerfing the spell to being something you can handle, it is learning in game strategies that are effective in countering such powers, which is what other high-level characters can/should/would do.

So DM's should adapt and overcome, not just wimp out and re-write a spell because it is "too hard", broken, or whatever. Shapechange has had nearly 30 years of playtesting. It isn't broken, it is just a challenge to a DM's skills.

 

[Will]

Don't know, Treebore, if you realize how antagonistic and rude you are being.

In any case, to the other respondents, thanks.

 

[jerichothebard]

I am sorry, but I am of the opinion if you have presumably played the character all the way up from first level there is absolutely nothing "broken" about shapechange or any other 9th level spell. You have payed your dues, now reap the rewards.

Any "broken" aspects of this spell is supposed to be balanced by the fact you took so long to earn it.

Now, because a few DM's consider it too overwhelming it needs to be "balanced". I am the DM, it is as balanced as I need it to be.

As to the flea going into a mouth and becoming a Collossus, you cannot shapechange or polymorph into something when you are in an area that is not big enough for it. That is in the books somewhere.

The quote you are thinking of I believe is in the Enlarge spell.

 

[Saeviomagy]

As far as I can see, assuming the cap of merely <level>, almost anything you turn into will have a CR lower than YOU. Furthermore, most of the top end creatures make use of spell-like abilities, which aren't granted by the spell.

Beyond some of the defensive capabilites of forms, most of the time to use the abilities of a form you'll be trading in the abilities which give you your own CR.

In short - shapechange isn't that great. You can turn into a creature that you could beat up.

 

[Will]

Yeah, I'm convinced by now. Just shocked.

The majority of the problem I had was when I thought it was level x 2, which makes it a little... scarier. I mean, there are a lot of epic stuff that would fall in the scope, at level x2!

 

[Hypersmurf]

As far as I can see, assuming the cap of merely <level>, almost anything you turn into will have a CR lower than YOU.

Well, sure... but you're turning into something with a CR lower than you... and then adding all your class levels on top.

There's something of a difference between a CR2 Choker with an Int of 4 constricting for 1d6+3, and a Choker with 17 Wizard levels and an Int of 26 casting two Horrid Wiltings a round.

-Hyp.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Well, sure... but you're turning into something with a CR lower than you... and then adding all your class levels on top.

Not quite. You add all the class levels on the side - most of the time your class abilities (spellcasting, wildshaping) won't 'stack' with the newly assumed form. It's the same kind of logic that says a troll with wizard levels only increases by half the CR of the wizard levels (and, in truth, is probably less effective than even that would suggest).

There's something of a difference between a CR2 Choker with an Int of 4 constricting for 1d6+3, and a Choker with 17 Wizard levels and an Int of 26 casting two Horrid Wiltings a round.
-Hyp.

That's one of the very few cases where the ability of a creature will synergise with the abilities of the shapechanger. And it probably should be "a choker is permanently under the effects of a haste spell" rather than "he gets an extra standard action a round"...

Turn into a pit fiend for instance. You can either
a) cast as a wizard
b) fight as a pit fiend

If you choose to cast as a wizard, you enjoy the benefits of DR, regeneration, spell resistance and some elemental resistances. Your spellcasting isn't elevated. You've enhanced your survivability by quite a bit, but then you DID just spend a 9th level spell to do it. A properly adjudicated foresight could have just as much effect on the battle, if not more.

If you choose to fight as a pit fiend, then sure you've got some tasty melee options, but you're now a CR 20 creature, minus the good hit dice and con bonus, minus the good BAB, minus all the spell like abilities. Basically you're a melee brute without the BAB or hitpoints to back it up.