Shapechange - Too powerful?

[Hypersmurf]

That's one of the very few cases where the ability of a creature will synergise with the abilities of the shapechanger.

You only need one case for it to be a good spell

And it probably should be "a choker is permanently under the effects of a haste spell" rather than "he gets an extra standard action a round"...

Well, that's what it said in 3E. They deliberately changed the language of the ability to have the same mechanical effect in 3.5 that it had in 3E, rather than retaining its affiliation to Haste.

It's not as though they simply overlooked the fact that a change in Haste changes the ability. They took they into account, and had to rewrite the text so that the change in Haste didn't affect the ability.

So I can't agree that it "should be" related to Haste still - effort was expended in the revision to ensure that is isn't.

Basically you're a melee brute without the BAB or hitpoints to back it up.

"Then again," continued the barbarian, displaying his Major Ring of Spell Storing, "perhaps I have the BAB and hit points to back it up after all."

-Hyp.

 

[nameless]

I agree that Shapechange is too powerful. For one, the spell lasts for most (if not all) of the adventuring day. While Shapechange is up, you have the possibility of near-perfect defense (usually also still allowing spellcasting), versatile offense, or all kinds of utility in-between.

Just for example:

-Choker can give you an extra standard action each round.
-Dragon can give you 8-10 die breath weapons every round (plus flight, SR, natural armor, etc.) without extra spell slots.
-Will-o'-the-wisp gives you near complete spell immunity, flight, natural invisibility, and a speaking voice.
-Golems give you spell immunity, construct immunities, DR, and natural attacks.
-Incorporeal undead give you the ability to pass through walls with impunity, without costing more spell slots.
-Umber Hulks can tunnel through solid rock for your party.
-Treants can do incredible damage to objects/fortifications.

None of these abilities are really that incredible for a high level Wizard, but to do any of them spontaneously without using any spell slots really puts Wizards over the top in terms of staying power.

 

[Will]

(blinkblink) Ring of spell storing! MAN!

I'm SO using that against my players.

Though I'm thinking a monk in stone golem form...

Actually, I have this fun modified class (Wild Reaver) which combines monk and barbarian abilities. Tee hee.

 

[eryndel]

Turn into a pit fiend for instance. You can either
a) cast as a wizard
b) fight as a pit fiend

If you choose to cast as a wizard, you enjoy the benefits of DR, regeneration, spell resistance and some elemental resistances. Your spellcasting isn't elevated. You've enhanced your survivability by quite a bit, but then you DID just spend a 9th level spell to do it. A properly adjudicated foresight could have just as much effect on the battle, if not more.

If you choose to fight as a pit fiend, then sure you've got some tasty melee options, but you're now a CR 20 creature, minus the good hit dice and con bonus, minus the good BAB, minus all the spell like abilities. Basically you're a melee brute without the BAB or hitpoints to back it up.

I disagree. If you shapechange into a pit fiend, you have the pit fiend's AC, DR, SR, immunities and resistances, and regeneration. Your attack bonus goes down by 9 (and you lose two attacks). Still, you have something like +21 to attack which isn't too shabby for a wizard. If you wish you get an attack sequence of 6 attacks (2 claws, 2 wings, 1 bite, 1 tail) sure at -5 instead of -2, you swap in the spell like abilities of the pit fiend (including summon) with the spell like abilities, er... spells, of a 18+ level spellcaster. With a ~+8 bonus to likely already phenomenal Concentration skill modifier, you can afford to wade into to combat attacking or spellcasting as you wish. Oh, and you have the equipment of an 18th level wizard as well (which is usually much better than your average pit fiend). So you take a drop in attack potential and get a boost in spellcasting and better equipment. This looks a little better than a normal pit fiend IME.

Oh, wait a minute, you can add templates to this. What about a half-dragon Pit Fiend, +4 AC, +4 to attacks from strength, +1 to Concentration and a breath weapon and more immunities (perhaps not stacking).

And this is from a form that doesn't particularly synergize with a wizard. It seems to me that this spell can get a little carried away. Sure it can be limited by a GM being strict on what forms a character is familiar with. But it seems like a GM would need to keep a careful eye on a character with shapechange. Perhaps more so then a character with Time Stop or Wail of the Banshee.

Werner

 

[Will]

Yeah, looking over the ways you can go, it seems that you can get a lot going with humanoids (titan, many demons/devils/celestials/inevitables). Some golems, though you have the speech issue with many of them.

Actually, what I find scarier is the Marilith. 5 extra attacks at full bonus. Man. With even a little combat ability...

Haven't really thought of templates. Hmm.

I've been meaning to pick up some monster books (I only have MM 1, CC1 &2). Among other things, I've been wanting to branch out my monsters from what I've been doing, though I've been enjoying vampire elementals, necromantic golems (from CC2), and iron golems...

 

[hong]

"Did you just pull that shapechange out of your ass?"

"Why do you think it's called a ring of spell storing?"


Hong "wokka wokka" Ooi