Shards of Memory OOC

[Rystil Arden]

Bront:
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FYI, Rystil, if you take that feat as a feat instead, I'll let you gain Lowlight Vision as part of your Fey heritage

You'll understand if, as a Druid and thus someone expecting to spend a good deal of time not in my own form (thus either losing the Low-Light Vision or gaining it automatically), I prefer to have it not a feat and not gain Low-Light Vision, right?
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[Bront]

RA and BS:
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That's cool--I love humans anyways.

They're all like level 17+ feats anyway so don't waste your time--it doesn't matter if you approve them or not (though the Changeling feat--and Burlew gets the *correct* use of the word Changeling here--is totally sweet).

I didn't want to post this because sometimes it upsets people who like Bards, but you did ask for it The reason I don't like Bards is because they just aren't special (except the Bardic Knowledge until the party Loremaster gets it). They are not good at anything and they are not even jack-of-all-trades enough for it to be worth that fact. My four variants fix this somewhat. There's just no reason to have a bard in your party when you can have something else--particularly comparing Bard to Druid. This is not just theory--I have played tabletop games with bards where the character begged to be able to play something else--anything else because of this. The bard has not-enough of anything to be fun in pretty-much any game I have ever played. The exception would probably be an extremely combat-lite game where you could play a Wizard with 11 Int or something and still be OK...I guess the point is that if you build me any party with a Bard, I can easily build a better party that covers all the same areas without the Bard.)

Rogue has no unique abilities anymore either, there are several other base classes that cover them. Wizard and Sorc dupe each other. There are lots of characters that can cover the abilities of other classes.

Also, no one has bardic music, and they have some exclusive spells that are quite nice and usefull (Sculpt Sound is cool). And Baric Knowledge is quite usefull, more usefull when used as a base class skill. On top of that, they're compitent in combat, and can wear light armor, and it doesn't hinder them as much as it does a rogue if they wear chain shirts. Now a bard can be made mostly useless by a party, but it takes away from the other abilities of the other classes. And you can never underestimate Inspire Courage.
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[Brother Shatterstone]

Rystil Arden and Bront[SBLOCK]

I didn't want to post this because sometimes it upsets people who like Bards...

Sadly I agree. If you look at the class survivor threads the Bard is the first one to go after the Monk. (Which gets tossed cause it’s a cultural thing.) The only two bards I have played have been in gestalt games. The divine bard was a Knight of the Crown (Dragonlance Game) who was also a historian of the order and the other is the highly irresistible Molpe.[/SBLOCK]

 

[Brother Shatterstone]

RA and Bront[SBLOCK]

Rogue has no unique abilities anymore either, there are several other base classes that cover them.

8 skill points a level, sneak attack, hell most of my warrior types a truly Rogues. ;[/SBLOCK]

 

[Bront]

RA:
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You'll understand if, as a Druid and thus someone expecting to spend a good deal of time not in my own form (thus either losing the Low-Light Vision or gaining it automatically), I prefer to have it not a feat and not gain Low-Light Vision, right?

That's fine, then you're blood's weak(er)

BTW, there's still an OOC coment realted to SOM you haven't addressed yet, and you're welcome to actualy either move some of this into the Hunters thread. I won't need you till they get back to base, but if need be, you can run Candide's Elf till he gets back. I think they should be back there soon though.
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[Rystil Arden]

BS and Bront:
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Not to start a debate but the Rogue only loses that uniqueness in add-on books. Looking at only the core base classes, Bard is already lost among the others. Wizards and Sorcerers being similar isn't really the point--Wizard is better and Sorcerer gets trumped out (although useful for some fringe uses), but neither is blown out of the water in the arcane arts. The Bard-only spells are somewhat fun, but with all the spells available out there, the fact that they have an incredibly limited number to know helps suck some of that fun away (Particularly when so many of the cool ones are niche, like Sculpt Sound, so you have to worry about missing out on something the party needs you to cover). I won't argue against Bardic Knowledge because its cool, but I will say that some GMs can really put a crimp in it quite easily and you can pick it up as a Wizard without losing casting. Their combat competence is below that of Cleric and Druid, two full casters, and mithral chain shirt isn't hurting the rogue either As for Inspire Courage, the Morale Bonus doesn't stack with any other morale bonuses, so the level 1 Bard is rendered over 50% useless (At level 1, to hit is more important than damage) by the Bless spell, for instance. Whee, poor bards. I feel sorry for them, I really do
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[Bront]

RA and BS[SBLOCK]

8 skill points a level, sneak attack, hell most of my warrior types a truly Rogues. ;

Scout has 8, Ranger and Bard has 6. There are a few base classes that get Sneak Attack now as well, and may PrCs.

Just an example, but yes, rogues make excelent warriors in many cases.

It's all what you want out of a PC. The bard has some issues, but I personaly enjoy playing one (Though, it can be tough, I understand). And that's realy what the game is about.
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[Rystil Arden]

Bront:
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BTW, there's still an OOC coment realted to SOM you haven't addressed yet

Where? I checked twice and missed it both times

I won't need you till they get back to base, but if need be, you can run Candide's Elf till he gets back. I think they should be back there soon though.

Sounds good! Quick question--before I pick the 18 17 17 13 8 8 character stat choice, I'm just going to make sure that you did in fact mean to offer that one (it has quite a high point buy).
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[Rystil Arden]

Bront:
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I personaly enjoy playing one (Though, it can be tough, I understand). And that's realy what the game is about.

That's absolutely 100% correct, and don't ever let anything I may say against the Bard make you think otherwise. As for me, I would never ever do it. I've spent years looking for clever ways to play a Bard without being one--in fact, my first PbP character on these boards, whom I took over from a previous owner, was a gestalt character (Shalah) which I transformed from Rogue/Bard (a pretty straight worthless gestalt actually since you already have the skill points and BAB from Rogue) to Rogue/Telepath
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[Brother Shatterstone]

RA and Bront[SBLOCK]

Scout has 8, Ranger and Bard has 6. There are a few base classes that get Sneak Attack now as well, and may PrCs.

Scout? Where can I find this class in the PHB... Every class uses its uniqueness when you start looking outside of the core books. (Though sneak attack is lost do to a couple of PrCs in the DMG but they a niche PrCs. (Both require you to be evil.)

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