D&D 5E Sharpshooter/Great Weapon Master and Why They Are Broken 101.

[FormerlyHemlock]

Not really

Yes, really.

It's not the only powerhouse configuration in 5E, but it is definitely a powerhouse configuration. Wizards have lots of synergies.

 

[Zardnaar]

Not really; it just requires different encounters than would (say) a party of Rogues, and experience with high level play.

You do need to be on top of your game as a DM with spellcasters at high level. A lot of the reasons for campaigns ending is DMs not taking into account what high level casters are capable of, and having a well crafted adventure get kerbstomped on account of a newly attained high level spell or two.

We've all been caught out like this before.

Its more the problem of you can't write an adventure that covers all the cracks. High level AD&D adventures for example often rendered things like teleport useless and spells like earthquake would not work in locations like Menzoberranzan. Or Teleport in general in certain places of the underdark.

Its not lazy DMIng, as I said I used to put i 4 hours+ prepping an adventure every week back in the day. Having to account for powergamers and customizing everything to account for combos like this would indicate that those feats are actually the problem. I stopped doing that and the PCs sure enough stopped taking those combos. Even powergamers get bored curbstomping everything and if the DM ups the challenge by using more monsters, tougher encounters or terrain all the time they get into the habit of thinking they are dead if they do not take the gonzo option.

Playing like that feeds into the powergaming loop. PCs take powerful options, DM caters to it, next game they think the fights will be hard so they build more powerful characters, DM caters to it etc. All that does is leads to an arm race between the DM and players. I already want to run a featless game but my players want to use feats so I have not resorted to the "I am running a feat less game, you can play or not". And even without feats other problems crop up such as dex is uber stat.

Its also bad where you have 1 PC doing the same amount of damage as the rest of the party combined which I have seen off a high level fighter- consistently hitting with 4-7 attacks at -5/+10.

Our other DM is still learning the ropes and he just started metagaming against the PCs where AC 18 become the new average but he found it hard deal with 2-3 fireballs if needed or things like hypnotic pattern shutting things down while the active opponents get focused on. Due to saves being bad in this edition and becoming a big problem IMHO at the higher levels. That leads to resilient becoming a feat tax, certain spells becoming mandatory (bless being one of them) or certain classes being a class tax (Paladins).

You need a bit of system master AKA powergaming to do that though.

 

[Flamestrike]

Yes, really.

It's not the only powerhouse configuration in 5E, but it is definitely a powerhouse configuration. Wizards have lots of synergies.

I know wizards have a lot of synergies. But as an experienced DM (and the bloke designing the encounters and adventures for them) I can take that into account.

Its harder to do (designing an adventure that challenges and entertains) for casters (an adventure for a party of 15th level Rogues is a very different adventure than one I design for a party of 15th level Wizards) but its possible.

Its like the common mistake of a DM designing an adventure for high level casters like this: 'The PCs must storm the tower, level by level, defeating waves of creatuers, in order to defeat the BBEG at the top of the tower'. DM spends hours of prep time statting out a series of encounters the PCs must bypass, and riddles etc they need to overcome.

On game day, the high level casters simply scry the tower, fly to the roof, and disintegrate their way in and nova the BBEG to paste in one round. Next minute the DM ragequits the campaign.

Thats not a problem with 'high level PCs being powerhouses'. Its a problem with the DM not designing his adventure for the party he has before him. The tower adventure would be great for a party of (say) Rogues (sneak in, assasinate the BBEG). For casters, its the wrong choice.

Its more the problem of you can't write an adventure that covers all the cracks. High level AD&D adventures for example often rendered things like teleport useless and spells like earthquake would not work in locations like Menzoberranzan. Or Teleport in general in certain places of the underdark.

Is one of the many tricks a DM can use. I tend to avoid overusing gimmicks like anti-magic and the like, however they can (and should) rear their heads from time to time.

Its not lazy DMIng, as I said I used to put i 4 hours+ prepping an adventure every week back in the day. Having to account for powergamers and customizing everything to account for combos like this would indicate that those feats are actually the problem. I stopped doing that and the PCs sure enough stopped taking those combos. Even powergamers get bored curbstomping everything and if the DM ups the challenge by using more monsters, tougher encounters or terrain all the time they get into the habit of thinking they are dead if they do not take the gonzo option.

I dont know what you're doing, but have you considered what prep you are doing, is missing some vital things?

Like time limits on quests, examining encounters (and the adventuring day) as a whole and specifically designing a mix of encounters for the group?

Playing like that feeds into the powergaming loop. PCs take powerful options, DM caters to it, next game they think the fights will be hard so they build more powerful characters, DM caters to it etc

Exactly. Its like the (common) mistake of DMs to throw a single hard difficulty encounter at the group (while ignoring the Adventuring day guidelines), and then helplessly sit there while the PC nova the crap out of it and rest.

The common mistake at this point is for the DM to then increase the difficulty of his encounters.

All this does is encourage nova strikes (and nova builds) and creates the 5 minute work day. Heck, it necesetates them. Rather than stop PCs from nova striking and power gaming, this DM is now making it mandatory at his table (and making several classes obsolete in the process).

Rather than throw harder encounters at the PCs, throw more of them between rests, enforce time limits on them, mix up encounters with different types of critters and mix up terrain and so forth.

That way no one build, class or PC will dominate, and all get a chance to shine.

Our other DM is still learning the ropes and he just started metagaming against the PCs where AC 18 become the new average but he found it hard deal with 2-3 fireballs if needed or things like hypnotic pattern shutting things down while the active opponents get focused on.

He's going the wrong way. He needs to push more encounters per adventuring day on the party. Simple time limits for quests is enough. You cant be dropping multiple fireballs and hypnotic patterns every encounter, and there will be plenty of encounters where multiple fireballs and hypnotic patters are not the way to go to win the encounter anyway (bless + GWM might be the better choice).

 

[Zardnaar]

I know wizards have a lot of synergies. But as an experienced DM (and the bloke designing the encounters and adventures for them) I can take that into account.

Its harder to do (designing an adventure that challenges and entertains) for casters (an adventure for a party of 15th level Rogues is a very different adventure than one I design for a party of 15th level Wizards) but its possible.

Its like the common mistake of a DM designing an adventure for high level casters like this: 'The PCs must storm the tower, level by level, defeating waves of creatuers, in order to defeat the BBEG at the top of the tower'. DM spends hours of prep time statting out a series of encounters the PCs must bypass, and riddles etc they need to overcome.

On game day, the high level casters simply scry the tower, fly to the roof, and disintegrate their way in and nova the BBEG to paste in one round. Next minute the DM ragequits the campaign.

Thats not a problem with 'high level PCs being powerhouses'. Its a problem with the DM not designing his adventure for the party he has before him. The tower adventure would be great for a party of (say) Rogues (sneak in, assasinate the BBEG). For casters, its the wrong choice.



Is one of the many tricks a DM can use. I tend to avoid overusing gimmicks like anti-magic and the like, however they can (and should) rear their heads from time to time.



I dont know what you're doing, but have you considered what prep you are doing, is missing some vital things?

Like time limits on quests, examining encounters (and the adventuring day) as a whole and specifically designing a mix of encounters for the group?



Exactly. Its like the (common) mistake of DMs to throw a single hard difficulty encounter at the group (while ignoring the Adventuring day guidelines), and then helplessly sit there while the PC nova the crap out of it and rest.

The common mistake at this point is for the DM to then increase the difficulty of his encounters.

All this does is encourage nova strikes (and nova builds) and creates the 5 minute work day. Heck, it necesetates them. Rather than stop PCs from nova striking and power gaming, this DM is now making it mandatory at his table (and making several classes obsolete in the process).

Rather than throw harder encounters at the PCs, throw more of them between rests, enforce time limits on them, mix up encounters with different types of critters and mix up terrain and so forth.

That way no one build, class or PC will dominate, and all get a chance to shine.



He's going the wrong way. He needs to push more encounters per adventuring day on the party. Simple time limits for quests is enough. You cant be dropping multiple fireballs and hypnotic patterns every encounter, and there will be plenty of encounters where multiple fireballs and hypnotic patters are not the way to go to win the encounter anyway (bless + GWM might be the better choice).

He did do the more encounter thing. He might go a bit overboard on beatsticks butbhe has used things like spellcasters, Dragons, remoraz or using 5 giants each of a different type.

I can be a bastard with encounter design but I don't want to overdo it either. If they are weak vs ranged attacks using them is fine but doing it all the time is fairly scummy.

 

[Flamestrike]

I can be a bastard with encounter design but I don't want to overdo it either. If they are weak vs ranged attacks using them is fine but doing it all the time is fairly scummy.

A ranged group of monsters here, a mix of monsters there, a spellcaster here, and AoE blaster there. A few High AC monsters, and a few low AC/ High HP monsters.

Buffs like bless etc in 5E generally last 1 combat and use the casters concentration slot. The Cleric might cast Bless as his first action in combat. This uses a resource (spell), his action and his concentration slot. There are three places you can place pressure on the Cleric just there; make him conserve resources, want his concentration slot for a different spell (like spirit guardians) or knock the concentration out of him, or have him want to do something different with his action on turn one (I find racing up and clobbering him with a monster generally worlks).

AoEs are great resource drains (breath weapons, fireballs, traps) and reasonably common. They place good resource drains on the party (in terms of HP, HD, and spell slots for healing magic) and you're always going to get a few failed Con saves out of them.

 

[Zardnaar]

A ranged group of monsters here, a mix of monsters there, a spellcaster here, and AoE blaster there. A few High AC monsters, and a few low AC/ High HP monsters.

Buffs like bless etc in 5E generally last 1 combat and use the casters concentration slot. The Cleric might cast Bless as his first action in combat. This uses a resource (spell), his action and his concentration slot. There are three places you can place pressure on the Cleric just there; make him conserve resources, want his concentration slot for a different spell (like spirit guardians) or knock the concentration out of him, or have him want to do something different with his action on turn one (I find racing up and clobbering him with a monster generally worlks).

AoEs are great resource drains (breath weapons, fireballs, traps) and reasonably common. They place good resource drains on the party (in terms of HP, HD, and spell slots for healing magic) and you're always going to get a few failed Con saves out of them.

I know that the players either take resilient:con, warcaster or mc to get con proficiency.

Dragon breathe is good for interrupting concentration. And blessing yourself buffs your saves

 

[Flamestrike]

I know that the players either take resilient:con, warcaster or mc to get con proficiency.

Dragon breathe is good for interrupting concentration. And blessing yourself buffs your saves

But thats fine. The player has now devoted 1) A character resource (ASI), 2) a rounds activity, 3) a spell resource and 4) his concentration slot.

He could have instead used that ASI on something else, done something else with his 1st turn, saved that spell for something else, and be using his concentration slot on something else.

Also: Dont be afraid to include things like traps or monsters that have things like an AoE that deals psychic damage (Int save for half). Mix it up and keep your players guessing.

Heck; here is a variant monster (its a Chimera, with an Illithids head instead of a dragons) that I reskinned and tweaked using this as an idea (took 1 minute to write up):

Pherenic Chimera (stats as chimera, resistant to psychic damage, loses flight, CR stays the same):

Multiattack.The Chimera makes three attacks: one with its bite, one with its tentacles, and one with its claws. When its psychic scream is available, it can use the scream in place of its bite or horns.

• Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +7 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 11 (2d6 + 4) piercing damage.
• Tentacles. Melee Weapon Attack: +7 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 7 (1d6+ 4) bludgeoning damage and the target is grappled (DC 15 escape)
• Claws. Melee Weapon Attack: +7 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 11 (2d6 + 4) slashing damage.

​
Psychic scream .The abomination releases a horrific mental scream in a 15-foot cone. Each creature in that area must make a DC 15 Intelligence saving throw, taking 31 (7d8) psychic damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. A creature that fails its save is also stunned for one round.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I know wizards have a lot of synergies. But as an experienced DM (and the bloke designing the encounters and adventures for them) I can take that into account.

Its harder to do (designing an adventure that challenges and entertains) for casters (an adventure for a party of 15th level Rogues is a very different adventure than one I design for a party of 15th level Wizards) but its possible.

Are you deliberately misinterpreting what I mean by "powerhouse"?

I never said or implied in any way that it is impossible or even difficult to create an adventure for a party of multiple wizards. They do, however, punch well above the DMG-predicted baselines. Three wizards and a bard will handle things that three paladins and a bard would really struggle with, for example.

It's like I said "Rottweilers are dogs" and you're saying, "No, they're definitely not cats."

Argh.

 

[Flamestrike]

Are you deliberately misinterpreting what I mean by "powerhouse"?

I never said or implied in any way that it is impossible or even difficult to create an adventure for a party of multiple wizards. They do, however, punch well above the DMG-predicted baselines. Three wizards and a bard will handle things that three paladins and a bard would really struggle with, for example.

It's like I said "Rottweilers are dogs" and you're saying, "No, they're definitely not cats."

Argh.

No, they dont. You can create an adventure for a party of Wizards within the DMG baseline; its just harder to do.

 

[Helldritch]

Sorry for you Flamestrike but Hemlock is right. A party of wizard punches well over wxpected DMG baselines, especialy when they will have a common spellbook in which rhey will have pooled their knowledge.

One necro, one summoner and maybe two bladesingers will plow through almost any dungeons without difficulty once they reach level 5. It will get really uggly once they reach level 12. But don't just believe me, do some simulations and you will see. Days of Codzilla are gone, but they're not that far away so we have forgotten about them.