D&D 5E Shield as Hex Weapon?

[Esker]

tl;dr: Can a Hexblade with the tavern brawler feat make their shield their hex weapon?

The Hex Warrior property requires a weapon you are proficient with that lacks the two-handed property. Tavern brawler makes you proficient with improvised weapons, which includes a shield used to bash. But since improvised weapons (and in particular, shields) are not weapons when they are not being used to attack, they may not qualify as a weapon at the moment the Hexblade chooses their Hex weapon at the end of a long rest.

How would you rule?

I can't find any discussion of this particular issue (Note that this is distinct from the issue of whether an improvised weapon can be a pact weapon: it can't, since a pact weapon must be a simple or martial weapon)

Here's my context: I have a Swords Bard with one level of Hexblade, and wind up being the de facto tank in a party with a wizard, a monk, and a rogue. The wizard took enlarge and I took expertise in athletics, so some grappling is clearly in order. Tavern Brawler gives a nice bonus action use, plus rounds out my odd CON score, but requires improvised weapon or unarmed attacks to qualify. Plus, in order to keep my AC up while maintaining the grapple, I need to hit with a weapon attack.

I could just do a shield bash with STR to qualify, but my CHA is significantly higher. So it'd be nifty if I could just be shield bash and grapple guy, without giving up the benefit of Hex Warrior...

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I see no power reason to disallow it. It's weaker than using Hex Warrior on a regular weapon.

However, I would say it runs counter to the spirit of the Tavern Brawler feat, which is based on the idea of hitting your opponent with whatever weapon comes immediately to hand, not with something you prepared earlier. I would rule that, if you use your daily use of hex warrior in advance, whether it be a shield or a broken bottle, it ceases to be an improvised weapon and becomes a regular weapon.

 

[Blue]

From a RAW perspective, if Improvised Weapons were considered weapons, then other things like the Dueling fighting style will break. (You don't need to be proficient with a weapon or even use it in order for Dueling not to apply.) So I would tend to think the designers didn't see them as weapons and it doesn't count.

From a RAF perspective, it's not power gaming and it's a cool concept - go for it.

15 years ago, I would have ruled the first. Now I'd rule the second.

 

[Fenris-77]

In this particular case I don't actually care too much about the RAW. I don't think you're breaking anything, and I can't think of a practical reason to disallow it. I wouldn't extend the idea to change the nature of improvised weapons generally, nor would I rule the same way if what you wanted was a hexblade frying pan, or barstool, but I'm ok with the shield.

 

[Esker]

I see no power reason to disallow it. It's weaker than using Hex Warrior on a regular weapon.

However, I would say it runs counter to the spirit of the Tavern Brawler feat, which is based on the idea of hitting your opponent with whatever weapon comes immediately to hand, not with something you prepared earlier. I would rule that, if you use your daily use of hex warrior in advance, whether it be a shield or a broken bottle, it ceases to be an improvised weapon and becomes a regular weapon.

So on this reading the build doesn't quite work, because the shield bash-as-Hex Weapon wouldn't qualify for the Tavern Brawler bonus action grapple. So until I get extra attack, I can't grapple and attack with a weapon in the same turn (I guess once I get extra attack I could bash+grapple in the first round, then bash+bash or bash+shove in subsequent rounds, but I'm leaving a major piece of the feat on the table).

Of course, from a fluff perspective, I can't think of a reason why the bonus action grapple from Tavern Brawler shouldn't work with any one-handed weapon; it seems like the d4 limitation is the operative part of the restriction.

 

[Esker]

From a RAW perspective, if Improvised Weapons were considered weapons, then other things like the Dueling fighting style will break.

Yeah, and it would also allow for TWF with a sword and shield-bash, provided you took the dual wielder feat. I understand things like this to be the reason behind the statement that improvised weapons are only weapons while you are attacking with them. Does that mean though that if you immediately begin bashing something with your shield the moment you finish your long rest, that you have satisfied the RAW?

 

[Esker]

In this particular case I don't actually care too much about the RAW. I don't think you're breaking anything, and I can't think of a practical reason to disallow it. I wouldn't extend the idea to change the nature of improvised weapons generally, nor would I rule the same way if what you wanted was a hexblade frying pan, or barstool, but I'm ok with the shield.

What would the issue be with a hexblade frying pan? That seems like even less of an exploit to me. I guess unless you're worried about being able to bring your Hex Weapon somewhere where you can't bring weapons; but Eldritch Knights and anyone with summoned weapons (e.g., Shadow Blade) can already get a weapon at any time. It seems like the operative thing for tavern brawler from a power perspective is that the bonus action grapple is limited to d4 weapons.

 

[Fenris-77]

Once you allow the hexblade frying pan all of a sudden pretty much any tool should be allowed, and that's a can of worms I'd rather not open. In a table with some trust I'd also be ok saying "summon what you like so long as you bash people with it". You want to weaponize a leg of lamb? Go nuts. Just don't start summoning hexblade thieves tools and whatnot. Which option I'd use depends on the table I'm GMing.

 

[Dausuul]

I used to worry about improvised weapons being abused, but I have become convinced it isn't a big deal. If you want to use your hexblade weapon ability on something that does d4 damage and isn't even light and costs a feat... go for it. If you want to use it on your thieves' tools or something, I will request that you have some sort of thematic/backstory reason why that fits your character, but if you do, I have no problem with it. (Remember, the player has to use a feat for this - it ain't free by a long shot.)

In general, my ruling is that you can decide whether you want to consider any given object a weapon or not. You can even change that designation from round to round. The one thing you can't do is have it both ways at once--for example, you cannot get the Dueling bonus and make an off-hand attack on the same turn.

 

[Esker]

Once you allow the hexblade frying pan all of a sudden pretty much any tool should be allowed, and that's a can of worms I'd rather not open. In a table with some trust I'd also be ok saying "summon what you like so long as you bash people with it". You want to weaponize a leg of lamb? Go nuts. Just don't start summoning hexblade thieves tools and whatnot. Which option I'd use depends on the table I'm GMing.

Oh, but the summoning bit is an issue with the pact weapon, not the hex weapon. The pact weapon is more restrictive, since it explicitly has to be a "simple or martial weapon".