Shield master on twitter

[Saeviomagy]

After reading JC's tweet, I got angry too. Then I remembered that JC is not my DM.

The problem is that he ends up indirectly being people's DM. It's hard to convince a DM that a feat should be run a particular way because otherwise it may as well not be in the game - the DM has limited time and scope to experiment with options, and tends to have limited play experience to make a good decision as to what is going to be useful to a player. It's substantially easier to convince your DM if someone in authority has said it should be played a certain way.

 

[5ekyu]

We both know what a rhetorical question is. Notice, that's also not a question but a statement. We both know that was not a question you were asking, but rhetorical, and also snarky. Similar to how, "Do you know what "?" means?" is both rhetorical, and snarky.

If you disagree (see - that's a question) then do please explain how the dex save stuff is in reply to the dwarf escaping stuff?

It was a question as to how far and from that possibly how consistent your feeling on the broader applicability (not just one game but bigger) went when so much of the comments offered we cloaked in as *in my own game* wrappers when convenient and portrayed as broder when not.

It was not about dwarves and your take on what dwarves do this and that, even tho dwarves were a part of it.

A clue to that might have been, to some, my not mentioning dwarf.

But i will give you a like... The technique of trying to spin someones question into a statement by yourself conjuring it as rhethorical is nicely done!!!

Kudos for that one.

 

[5ekyu]

The problem is that he ends up indirectly being people's DM. It's hard to convince a DM that a feat should be run a particular way because otherwise it may as well not be in the game - the DM has limited time and scope to experiment with options, and tends to have limited play experience to make a good decision as to what is going to be useful to a player. It's substantially easier to convince your DM if someone in authority has said it should be played a certain way.

Thats no different from any other house rule or custom rule you want to get thru your gm.

You could just as well be saying the DMG makes it harder to get your custom race approved cuz they added guidelines.

 

[Oofta]

So all that stuff about how the dex save bonuses and zero vs half etc never, almost never, mattering etc are more universal findings, not just limited to that table/character canpaign and the folks talking about how useful those are in other games are wrong?

Or is it just that the negatives are ok to extrapolate to other tables but the positives have to occur at that one table to count as a rule for this thread?

Were you talking about how I pointed out that the save for half is worth far less than a rogue's evasion? Because the implication was that they were equivalent. They aren't. Unlike rogues, most PCs that have shield master won't have a high dexterity nor do they have proficiency in dexterity saves. So on average it buys you significantly less damage reduction than the half feat heavy armor master. You would be far better off taking the two half feats heavy armor master and resilience.

Shield Master isn't worthless, it's just worth less than other options.

 

[Oofta]

I am glad tho we have gotten the discusdion focused down to the assessment of how impactful this ruling is to one specific table and its particulars, even for one particular players one character at that - as opposed to making any claims now about its impact anywhere else.

In order for the shove and run tactic to work pretty much all of the following conditions have be met:
A) The rest of your party is ranged, and is more than the enemy's movement speed away after the shove.
B) The PC must move as fast or faster than the enemy. So too bad dwarves, hope you aren't fighting a monster that has better than your base move.
C) This can be the only enemy threatening you. No other enemies adjacent when you flee.
D) The enemy either came to you or it's not the first round so you still have your full movement.
E) There's someplace to shove the enemy so they are farther away.
F) You are in the open with no obstruction to movement and everyone can use their movement every round to get away without provoking themselves.
G) The monster can't have ranged attacks

Huh. In all my years decades of playing and DMing I've rarely had a fight that all of these criteria were met. So this tactic may work at your table, but I don't remember an encounter it would have worked at mine. I'm old, and may be forgetting one so I'll say the tactic is pointless 99% of the time in my experience.

Kiting the monsters can be a valid tactic if you're a swashbuckler. If I wanted to use this tactic that's what class I would choose. I would also be accepting that the monster is probably just going to attack someone else. Like a guy with high armor class because they have armor and shield.

Last but not least, I don't think the feat is completely worthless, it's just worth less than an ASI or several other feats.

 

[jaelis]

Last but not least, I don't think the feat is completely worthless, it's just worth less than an ASI or several other feats.

Would you agree, though, that the feat is also worth more than several other feats?

(To be clear, I think that every feat should be comparable to an ASI. But IMO many are not, and I can't get too excited about adding one more to that list.)

 

[Oofta]

Would you agree, though, that the feat is also worth more than several other feats?

(To be clear, I think that every feat should be comparable to an ASI. But IMO many are not, and I can't get too excited about adding one more to that list.)

If I ignore feats that make no sense (i.e. Elemental Adept) I took a quick glance through the feats. Let's see. There are several that are better, including half feats. Athlete is underwhelming but I would still probably get more use out of it and it's a 1/2 feat. Then there are the situational feats. Dungeon Delver for example depends heavily on the campaign, Actor on the campaign, character and motivations.

Honestly? There may be something I'm not seeing but no, I can't think of a worse feat unless I take one that doesn't fit my character and campaign. What feat(s) do you think would be worse unless you pick a feat that would never make sense for that PC?

 

[jaelis]

I would rate shield master as clearly stronger than any of charger, elemental adept, grappler, keen mind, savage attacker, lightly armored, linguist, or weapon master.

I'd put it in a rough category with athlete, dungeon delver, mage slayer, martial adept, observant, skilled, and spell sniper.

 

[Oofta]

I would rate shield master as clearly stronger than any of charger, elemental adept, grappler, keen mind, savage attacker, lightly armored, linguist, or weapon master.

I'd put it in a rough category with athlete, dungeon delver, mage slayer, martial adept, observant, skilled, and spell sniper.

There is no reason to take elemental adept, lightly armored, weapon master for martial characters. Grappler doesn't apply to sword-and-board because you don't have a free hand. Why even include them in the list other than to pad it?

Charger is more useful. There have been a number of times when it would have given me an attack when all I could do was close to be in melee range (or throw a javelin). Don't forget it adds extra damage every time you run around to attack someone else as well.

Keen mind I took for one of my characters because of background and fluff. Also the DM expected players to remember what happened to the PCs 15 minutes ago even though the game was several weeks prior. So from a mechanical perspective not great, it's more of a niche like Actor. But if you want to run a Sherlock Holmes type character in an investigation-heavy campaign it's useful.

Linguist falls into the same category as Keen Mind. It's more of a fluff feat. Not useful in combat, but useful based on character concept and campaign.

 

[Oofta]

Just a quick follow-up on the Charger feat. Now that I think about it, it's actually a pretty decent feat.

Any time I'm not in melee and there's a bad guy at least 10 feet away (within dash range) I can dash over, either push them further than I can with shield master and close the distance and follow up with any attacks I have remaining. Or I can dash over, hit them with extra damage then continue my normal attack action.

In many encounters that's an extra attack with bonus damage or getting the bad guy off my wizard after I take care of the mook I was fighting. Not bad.