Shield master on twitter

[jaelis]

OK, my rating is intended to be more general, as in, I don't think any character should take Elemental Adept if they still have room for ASIs in their prime state. (At least, they shouldn't for mechanical reasons.) IE, I think that Shield Master is more useful to a melee character than Elemental Adept is for an arcanist.

If you reject the possibility of making such comparisons, then I guess my list is meaningless to you.

If you are able to see then benefits of charger but not shield master for a melee warrior, then I would suggest you might be approaching the question with some unconscious biases. That said, what do you mean here?

Don't forget it adds extra damage every time you run around to attack someone else as well.

You only get the damage bonus if you took the dash action.

 

[jaelis]

Just a quick follow-up on the Charger feat. Now that I think about it, it's actually a pretty decent feat.

Any time I'm not in melee and there's a bad guy at least 10 feet away (within dash range) I can dash over, either push them further than I can with shield master and close the distance and follow up with any attacks I have remaining. Or I can dash over, hit them with extra damage then continue my normal attack action.

In many encounters that's an extra attack with bonus damage or getting the bad guy off my wizard after I take care of the mook I was fighting. Not bad.

Right, I think you are misreading the feat. If you've used your action to dash, you don't have any attacks remaining. Or maybe I am looking at a bad copy?

When you use your action to Dash, you can use a bonus action to make one melee weapon attack or to shove a creature. If you move at least 10 feet in a straight line immediately before taking this bonus action, you either gain a +5 bonus to the attack’s damage roll (if you chose to make a melee attack and hit) or push the target up to 10 feet away from you (if you chose to shove and you succeed).

 

[Oofta]

Right, I think you are misreading the feat. If you've used your action to dash, you don't have any attacks remaining. Or maybe I am looking at a bad copy?

Yeah, it's a Monday. Brain cramp. It's still useful when I need to close the distance between my PC and the bad guys which seems to happen just about every other combat. So move/action to dash/bonus attack (with a damage bonus). It's better than moving then throwing a javelin, especially depending on how picky your DM is about drawing weapons.

Still a decent feat for a swashbuckler who can just run away without provoking - dash/bonus attack with extra damage/move out of range.

 

[Oofta]

OK, my rating is intended to be more general, as in, I don't think any character should take Elemental Adept if they still have room for ASIs in their prime state. (At least, they shouldn't for mechanical reasons.) IE, I think that Shield Master is more useful to a melee character than Elemental Adept is for an arcanist.

If you reject the possibility of making such comparisons, then I guess my list is meaningless to you.

I don't reject the possibility. I thought we were comparing apples to apples. What other feat makes sense for a sword-and-board fighter, which is what I asked in the question you were responding to. If you're going to move the goalposts, let me know.

Elemental adept can be useful based on the campaign. In a recent campaign I ran, at higher levels the majority of bad guys had fire resistance (red dragon blood infusions turning them into half-dragons). So yes, for the fire based spell caster it was a worthwhile feat.

Just like dungeon delver is not great unless you are a rogue and do a lot of dungeon crawls.

Depending on campaign and character those feats are quite a bit more useful.

 

[smbakeresq]

Huh? Yes, shove action still retains the limitations it always had. For example, you cannot shove someone who is on another planet.

Shield Master and bonus actions et al have not changed those.

I never said they did, the person I was responding to claimed the shove action was super useful. The point was that Shield Master always had limitations preventing it from being a really good feat on par with GWM, PAM, SS.

 

[smbakeresq]

Were you talking about how I pointed out that the save for half is worth far less than a rogue's evasion? Because the implication was that they were equivalent. They aren't. Unlike rogues, most PCs that have shield master won't have a high dexterity nor do they have proficiency in dexterity saves. So on average it buys you significantly less damage reduction than the half feat heavy armor master. You would be far better off taking the two half feats heavy armor master and resilience.

Shield Master isn't worthless, it's just worth less than other options.

Correct. IMO, the way the game is now is feats have four tiers:

1. those that are equal to or worth more than a main ability increase (optimization or fun wise);
2. those that you take after your max your main stat;
3. and those that are just worth little but have some value;
4. and those that are garbage like Martial Weapon Proficiency.

Shield Mastery was composed of two from category 3 (the situational save bonuses) and the situational bonus action usage to maybe get advantage which was probably in the middle of category 2 and 3. Added together it would solidly be in category 2 or the bottom of category 1 because it was fun to use and certainly worth roleplaying as "I will try to bash the Grimlock off the ledge with bonus action and then attack the other grimlock with my regular attack" or "I bash the Troll into the lava by the Fire Giant's forge" are fun. But its useless against huge or larger creatures, and was never a guarantee. Even the Grimlock I used in my example has a +5 bonus to Athletics checks, the Troll would be +4.

To try to shove prone to get advantage attacking a Prone creature is certainly worth a Paladin's bonus action so they can try to crit for a Divine Smite, but Paladins don't have a lot of pressure on their bonus actions.


You don't shove to get away, you disengage or just eat the OppAtt and run. The people who take Shield Master are the ones that should be standing there blocking the enemy so the others can get away, then they do something that allows you to escape like dropping a grease spell on the spaces between the Shielder and the enemy. Your an adventurer, running away is last resort type stuff.

 

[smbakeresq]

Yeah, it's a Monday. Brain cramp. It's still useful when I need to close the distance between my PC and the bad guys which seems to happen just about every other combat. So move/action to dash/bonus attack (with a damage bonus). It's better than moving then throwing a javelin, especially depending on how picky your DM is about drawing weapons.

Still a decent feat for a swashbuckler who can just run away without provoking - dash/bonus attack with extra damage/move out of range.

The problem with Charger is it only works for PC's who have only one attack for their action, you are switching your attack action to an attack as a bonus action with a rider. The people who would take charger are martial types who have more than one attack at later levels who lose more then they gain. Its just another feat that makes me wonder what games the writer plays in.

 

[smbakeresq]

I'm guessing this was a rhetorical question, since you've no doubt met many players (in person or in post) who don't make decisions based on concerns for optimization, and you already know one answer is "because it looks like a fun choice."

That's why I took Shield Master for the heavily armored enchanter I created to replace my fallen gnome battlemaster; and it's why that gnome had Martial Adept even though it was clear to me that a Dex boost was definitely a numerically superior choice.

I wound up not playing that enchanter (with a splash of Life cleric for the armor and added paladinyness), though. Instead, I'm playing a halfling moon druid with high physical stats that go wasted because I spend most of my time as a dog.

Do you have fun ruining the rest of the parties chance of success by trying to make less than useful party members? Forcing the other players to play around your PC?

I can see why gnome battlemaster is listed as "fallen."


Your paragraph explains the previous 3057 posts of yours. "Its all so very clear to me now, the whole thing," as the quote goes. (Bonus XP if you can pick the Movie its from)

 

[Oofta]

The problem with Charger is it only works for PC's who have only one attack for their action, you are switching your attack action to an attack as a bonus action with a rider. The people who would take charger are martial types who have more than one attack at later levels who lose more then they gain. Its just another feat that makes me wonder what games the writer plays in.

I agree that I wouldn't rank charger it as high as other feats, depending on the DM and typical encounter distance it's in your 2-3 range.

I would still rank it above shield master if you can only shove after taking all attacks. If you can attack/knock prone/attack with advantage then shield master is probably slightly better. But that's not what JC said. According to the tweet you have to take your complete attack action before you can shove.

In most cases shoving someone away after you attack just makes it easier for them to reposition on their turn and almost never makes sense. Knocking them prone might help or hurt your allies depending on sequence and party makeup.

 

[jaelis]

I agree that I wouldn't rank charger it as high as other feats, depending on the DM and typical encounter distance it's in your 2-3 range.

I would still rank it above shield master if you can only shove after taking all attacks. If you can attack/knock prone/attack with advantage then shield master is probably slightly better. But that's not what JC said. According to the tweet you have to take your complete attack action before you can shove.

In most cases shoving someone away after you attack just makes it easier for them to reposition on their turn and almost never makes sense. Knocking them prone might help or hurt your allies depending on sequence and party makeup.

Well, at any rate as a player you have a nice simple solution then... just ask your DM that in light of JC's ruling, can you swap out Shield Master for Charger?