Shields & (Two Weapon) Defense

[Errant]

SRD Two Weapon Defense:
When wielding a double weapon or two weapons (not including natural weapons or unarmed strikes), you gain a +1 shield bonus to your AC. When you are fighting defensively or using the total defense action, this shield bonus increases to +2.

If I understand correctly shield bonuses don't stack. So, assuming I have Improved Shield Bash so I can use a shield as a weapon in my off hand while still gaining the shield bonus (ideally using Oversize Two Weapon Fighting from Complete Adventurer), is Two Weapon Defense a waste of time?

If I can learn to fight defensively & get an increased AC bonus while wielding a light weapon in my off hand, it doesn't seem to me unbalanced to gain some extra shield defense the same way. I mean, surely there should be some way to specialise in shield defense to get more than the standard +2 bonus for your everyday heavy shield (for instance), but I don't see that reflected in the rules.

Am I missing something?

 

[Jack Simth]

Oh... I don't think you are missing much... but I suspect that Two-Weapon Defense wasn't designed with Shields in mind.

Consider, though, that if you are using a shield and a sword (and attack with both) you have to split any of the feats that focus on increasing the power of your chosen weapon (as you are working with two - sword and shield), while if you are using two of the same weapon (shortswords, say) Weapon Focus and the like apply equally to both - with the downside being that you don't get a shield bonus at all without a feat, spell, or some such. So the feat list for:

Sword & Board two weapon fighter might look something like:
Two-Weapon Fighting
Improved Shield Bash
Weapon Focus (Sword)
Weapon Focus (Board)

Two-Weapon Fighter might look something like:
Two-Weapon Fighting
Two-Weapon Defense
Weapon Focus (Sword)
Weapon Specialization (Sword)

Sword & board version gets a fair chunk more AC, while the Two-Weapon version deals a decent chunk more damage.

 

[Errant]

Thats all well and good assuming you're focusing on attacking Jack, but what if I want to maximize my AC instead?

I'd like to play a Fighter more specialized in defensive shield use & combat moves like disarming, & tripping etc. Someone that uses his skill, rather than brute force, to disable his opponents while dodging or deflecting their attacks.

The feats are there for the attacks, but I don't see many to boost my defense.

Yes, sure, Rings of Protection, Amulets of Natural Armor etc are all well & good, but excluding magic, if I'm a straight fighter, to boost my AC I'm currently limited to armor, shield, Dex, Dodge & Combat Expertise feats.

Plenty of ways to boost your attacking options, not much to boost defense.

Shields can be a huge component of your AC, but what can you do without magic to make better defensive use of them?

Do I really just have to resort to house rules?

 

[Jack Simth]

Thats all well and good assuming you're focusing on attacking Jack

I'm hardly focused on attacking myself. And I hope nobody else focuses on attacking me, either.

I don't think you are missing much, honestly. Shouldn't be unbalancing to HR something in, really - feats are expensive.

 

[Errant]

Should have put that comma in after 'attacking', huh?

Damn shame the system seems geared toward boosting attacks while neglecting defenses.

Makes playing a smart Fighter difficult without resorting to other classes.

 

[FEADIN]

Should have put that comma in after 'attacking', huh?

Damn shame the system seems geared toward boosting attacks while neglecting defenses.

Makes playing a smart Fighter difficult without resorting to other classes.

Expertise is the solution but you need 13 Int, 2 weapon defense is about fighting with 2 weapons and gaining a shield bonus, Improved shield bash is about fighting with weapon and shield and gaining an attack....different styles but nearly the same result.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

SRD Two Weapon Defense:
If I understand correctly shield bonuses don't stack. So, assuming I have Improved Shield Bash so I can use a shield as a weapon in my off hand while still gaining the shield bonus (ideally using Oversize Two Weapon Fighting from Complete Adventurer), is Two Weapon Defense a waste of time?

Yes, it is.

You might want to check here: http://www.giantitp.com/Func0009.html for some additional feats along the lines of what you are describing.

Further discussion, however, might reasonably belong in the House Rules forum.

 

[Nail]

Damn shame the system seems geared toward boosting attacks while neglecting defenses.

Actually, I see this as an important "feature", not a "bug".

After all, if you are a two-weapon fighter, you are making the conscious decision to concentrate on Offence. Why should your defence be as good as those who are not two-weapon fighters?

It's a simple question of balance.